Hello, I'm Envelope

Tell us a little about yourself.

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surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:46 pm

That now makes a lot more sense as you are not denying the existence of a brain within your physical body as I thought you were
You are simply saying that the idea of you or I in relation to that brain is different to that of how others perceive it including me
I do not agree with that but from a conceptual perspective I fully understand it because it is stated by way of logical explanation

Age
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:01 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:46 pm
That now makes a lot more sense as you are not denying the existence of a brain within your physical body as I thought you were
You are simply saying that the idea of you or I in relation to that brain is different to that of how others perceive it including me
I do not agree with that but from a conceptual perspective I fully understand it because it is stated by way of logical explanation
It is now stated by way of 'logical explanation' because a logical explanation was asked for by way of a clarifying question/s.

I have hinted before that I write in a way to evoke inquisitiveness, as it is through wondering or being inquisitive that then clarifying questions are asked, and then from clarifying questions, logical explanations can be given, and thus obtained.

As far as I have observed no person can write in a 'logically explanation-abled' way for every one, so when some thing written appears illogical, to some one, then just asking for clarity I found is the best (simplest, easiest, and quickest) way to obtain a 'logical explanation'.

As you have just helped shown with example here now, so thank you.

I am not here, in this forum, to explain logically my views, first time around. I have far to much to learn before I could even imagine doing that yet. So, I am here to evoke responses.

If my writings evoke responses seeking clarity, then I KNOW more what it is exactly that that one is unsure of and really wants to know. So, then I can show just how quickly, simply, and easily the truth of things can become known, and understood. And,

If my writings evoke responses of disagreement, hate, closedness/rigidness, et cetera, then that is okay also as that is example of how the brain works. When the brain is assuming and believing that it already knows what the truth of things is, then it does not remain OPEN to just seek clarity, peacefully and harmoniously, just like you have done and shown.

Absolutely any thing can be learned, understood, and reasoned when one is Truly OPEN.

Also, remember I do not know how others, and you, perceive things, nor did I know that you thought that I was denying the existence of a brain with this physical body. The only way I could know these things, for sure, is to ask you and them BEFORE I start to write things, which would take a great deal of effort. Or, I could assume what others and you are thinking before I write, but I do not like to do this. As this could lead to me assuming wrong things and/or me just end up saying what others and you want to hear.

Things can not be changed, for the better, if people just say and write what others, and you, already know, and just want to hear.

I know adult human beings do not like their already held views and beliefs being questioned and challenged, but I really do not care. What I have set out to do and am doing is not for 'you', adults only, necessarily. What I am doing is so everyone ultimately ends up living in peace and harmony, which inevitably ends up being 'you' adults also included anyway. The quicker Who the 'I' IS is accepted and understood, and the quicker that 'I' is listened to, and heard, then the quicker ALL-OF-YOU eventually living in the "world" and in the way that you ALL truly want and desire.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3636
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:30 pm

You can perceive how some members will think after some interaction with them and so it is not always a blank slate one operates from
And though you say you are not here on the forum to logically explain your views that is exactly what you are doing from my perspective
And others here too from their own perspective are seeing you do the same based upon how they respond to you so this you should know

Age
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:01 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:30 pm
You can perceive how some members will think after some interaction with them and so it is not always a blank slate one operates from
This is very true. We can very simply and very easily perceive what "others" are thinking, (contrary to popular belief???) But is this perception actually true, or, is it just an assumption, which obviously could be wrong or partly wrong?

If it is the latter, then I suggest it might be better to never assume. But, if it is the former, then how do you KNOW if your perception is true or not, without first clarifying?

Also it is not about just being a blank slate from which to operate from at all. I see it as just being about always being OPEN, so as to always being able to fill up the slate with more and newer knowledge as much as possible.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:30 pm
And though you say you are not here on the forum to logically explain your views that is exactly what you are doing from my perspective
But I thought you said and admitted that I did not logically explain my views, the first time. This is what I perceived from your asking a clarifying question to me. Are you now saying that my perception of what you were thinking, when you asked me to clarify my views, was wrong?

If yes, then this is another example of why it is better to never assume and/or never perceive what "another" is thinking, without first clarifying.

If no, then could you please clarify and logically explain what you are now saying?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:30 pm
And others here too from their own perspective are seeing you do the same based upon how they respond to you so this you should know
But some here, in this forum, think and some here believe that I am a complete and utter idiot who could never logically explain any thing that I am saying, which, by the way, is perfectly fine with me as this is exactly what I have set out to create anyway, with those ones.

But anyway, the fact is, at the current moment, of when this is written, I obviously am never able to always logically explain all of my views to all of the people all of the time.

So, instead of explaining your views, the way that you have, which I thank you for by the way, could you agree with me that some times I logically explain my views, to a differing set of varying human beings, while at other times other things happen?

Although I may like to perceive that I am doing what you are saying about logically explaining my views to you and "others", the truth is, and we both know, that this, at the moment of when this is written, is not happening all of the time.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3636
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:06 am

Age wrote:
Although I may like to perceive that I am doing what you are saying about logically explaining my views to you and
others the truth is and we both know that this at the moment of when this is written is not happening all of the time
I meant it in a general rather than specific sense so sometimes clarification will be required and other times not at all
This is a problem with communication in general so is not something exclusive to you but to all of us from time to time

Age
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:19 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:06 am
Age wrote:
Although I may like to perceive that I am doing what you are saying about logically explaining my views to you and
others the truth is and we both know that this at the moment of when this is written is not happening all of the time
I meant it in a general rather than specific sense so sometimes clarification will be required and other times not at all
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I think it will be discovered that clarification is needed far more than is expected, in these times when this is written.

For example, you wrote; And though you say you are not here on the forum to logically explain your views that is exactly what you are doing from my perspective
And others here too from their own perspective are seeing you do the same based upon how they respond to you so this you should know


You did not make it clear that you meant 'sometimes'. When things are not written clearly, or are written from an absolutist perspective, then this is, mostly, when disagreements occur, and then disputes, et cetera can then all to easily quickly follow. From how some people respond to me, what you said could have been all to easily and quickly counter "argued", which could then all to easily and quickly escalated. However, with just the use of the word 'sometimes' both "sides" of the discussion can be very quickly resolved into, and by, one sound, logical argument, which could not be refuted and which is in agreement with and by ALL.

Now, I could have assumed you meant 'sometimes'. But you did not write 'sometimes', so you may not have meant 'sometimes'. If things are said which are not meant, then it is better to never say them at all. Only through clarifying, I can then truly decipher any thing you say.

Doing this, however, could take forever, but I have found if people truly do not want to 'argue' and fight, then clarifying needs to happen far more regularly than it does now, in the period of when this is written. Another way of living in peace and harmony, instead of 'arguing', disagreeing, disputing, fighting, and warring, without the unnecessary long line of back and forth questioning and the long time it takes to clarify exactly what each other means, is to just say what you mean, and, just mean what you say.

Although, and contrary to popular belief, just saying what you mean can take some time also, but at least it does not take as long as clarifying with each other when the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is not said.

If you meant 'sometimes' and the truth is 'sometimes', then why did you not just say the word 'sometimes' also?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:06 am
This is a problem with communication in general so is not something exclusive to you but to all of us from time to time
This is a great point to make here clear and known. Truly understanding it is even better.

How do we KNOW when 'clarification' is needed or not?

Providing your Truly open and honest answer/s now, will be a great help in getting "others" to clearly know and understand this Truth also.

The Answers are within, they just need the Right questions to help them be released, or revealed.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3636
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:56 am

Age wrote:
just say what you mean and just mean what you say
Sometimes I do not have the mental energy and sometimes I just assume any gaps can be filled in without explanation
Clarification on the scale you require would simply be too mentally exhausting and so I tend not to do it for this reason

User avatar
-1-
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by -1- » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:56 am
Age wrote:
just say what you mean and just mean what you say
Sometimes I do not have the mental energy and sometimes I just assume any gaps can be filled in without explanation
Clarification on the scale you require would simply be too mentally exhausting and so I tend not to do it for this reason
What Age is doing is also a tactic of those in a debate who are losing the argument. They ask questions to death. This is a dirty tactic, and I detest its practice.

I have no proof, but I suspect Age is using this tactic right now with you, Surrep. Age is not stupid. He is shrewd and has a high IQ. But he is evil, in the sense religious fanatics can be evil. I long ago put him on iggie as I got tired of his fruitless tactics a very long time ago.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:52 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:56 am
Age wrote:
just say what you mean and just mean what you say
Sometimes I do not have the mental energy and sometimes I just assume any gaps can be filled in without explanation
Clarification on the scale you require would simply be too mentally exhausting and so I tend not to do it for this reason
What Age is doing is also a tactic of those in a debate who are losing the argument. They ask questions to death.
What some people do in a debate has NOTHING whatsoever to do with what I am doing here.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
This is a dirty tactic, and I detest its practice.
Who cares?

I was not even arguing nor debating any thing really, so I was certainly not asking questions for that reason you are giving here.

I ask questions just for plain old and simple clarification. If you are unable to clarify what it is that you are saying and so detest it, then that might just mean that you do not fully know or understand what it is that you are trying to say.

Besides that, me and surreptitious57 rarely debate things as though we are right. We just discuss, while putting our views forward. I certainly do not have any thing to debate, and I am certainly not really arguing for any thing here. surreptitious57 is open enough for us to just discuss without having to fight for any particular side of any thing.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
I have no proof, but I suspect Age is using this tactic right now with you, Surrep.
You are right, you do not have any proof. What you suggested was just an assumption that you were making, which from my perspective is a very wrong assumption.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
Age is not stupid.
'age' is just three letters proposed as a username for the one writing here. As to whether the one who is writing here does stupid things at times, and this then is classed as stupid, then I certainly, and I know of few "others" who, would totally disagree that the one called "age" here is not stupid.

This one has probably done more stupid things in Life then the rest of all of all the "others" put together here in this forum have.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
He is shrewd and has a high IQ.
'he' is an assumption, and, 'shrewd' and 'high iq' is just another assumption, which could be completely and utterly wrong. For this one to be shrewd and high iq'd could very easily be disputed.

I have yet to work out how to word the most simplest of terms, 'I do not believe nor disbelieve any thing', without it being misunderstood and/or rejected. So, there is certainly no shrewdness nor high iq happening here. In fact, it appears the more I try to put my real and true views across, then the more I am misunderstood and not accepted. I thought a shrew and high iq'd one would be able to do the opposite than what I am "achieving" here.
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
But he is evil, in the sense religious fanatics can be evil.
In what sense can religious fanatics be evil?

Also, what 'religion' do you think I follow or belong to, and in which I am supposedly "fanatical" with?

With almost CERTAINTY I KNOW you will assume the wrong answer. That is; if you answer my clarifying question here.

Do you think/believe I am connected in anyway with any religion, and if yes, then which religion?

What 'evil' do you think I want to perform or create?
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:44 am
I long ago put him on iggie as I got tired of his fruitless tactics a very long time ago.
Oh, so maybe you will not see this anyway, and/or maybe you have not even seen what I have been corresponding back and forth, with surreptitious57, with? Maybe you are just basing your response here on only what surreptitious57 has written, and have completely taken out of context what I was actually saying and we were actually talking about?

In case you read this; I was just explaining some ways of clarifying, which I, just like surreptitious57, say and agree with, consumes to much effort and takes way to long to do anyway.

By the way, what are my "fruitless tactics" supposed to be?

What do you think/believe that I am trying to achieve and what are the "tactics" that you think/believe I am using, which are "fruitless", and therefore will not work in allowing me to achieve 'that' what it is that I have set out to achieve and am meant to be achieving?

If you were to show and tell me what tactics I am using which are obviously "fruitless", which I obviously can not yet see, then this will help me in my learning how to better communicate my views.

The trouble with viewing, from the "inside", one's own thoughts/behaviors, from one's own perspective, we are not able to CLEARLY see what we could be doing better and more efficiently. This is WHY helping and supporting each other helps in creating a way of life in which we ALL want to live in and share.

If people do not tell me what I am doing wrong, then I may never know.

Envelope
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:12 pm

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:26 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:40 pm

- process-skilled: I can't operate my cell phone. Nuff said.
Lol

I know what you mean though. It’s hard to enter a paradigm of learning when stuck in a paradigm of stasis. I’ll take the chance to pick up the whole problem from a larger angle and rehearse my ability to contextualize it in a framework where there’s space for solutions, and only at the end I'll tackle your answer directly.

I think the traditional culture-formation trend in history has been that of creating situations of stability and predictability. Although, with the progression of our journey on earth as human race we’ve naturally come to a point where our system is naturally requiring increasingly more people to become constant learners in order to keep being highly optimized for production. The dynamic nature of the system of the future is already embedded in the system of today. So the paradigm shift from a human being that grows into a static creature to a human being that grows into a creator in constant exploration and production I think is already embedded in the structure of our civilization and is going to be what we might call a natural environmental pressure on our evolution.

So, given the state of things, it follows quite logically that self development will be the new adaptive tendency for the humans of the 21st century. And, as I was saying, shifting mental paradigm is tough, but it’s possible. A very common situation to use as an analogy to illustrate both the toughness of shifting paradigm and also its factual possibility is when we learn how to drive a car. There are some people that struggle with it so much, even with the theoretical side of it, which to me seemed very silly at the time. It just seemed so easy to me, it’s just a bunch of rules and you just have to understand the super simple logic behind them, imagine yourself in the situation, and boom, permanently stored in memory. But there were people that really had no idea how to perform such task of learning. Although, once they spent enough time on it, they too felt fairly confident about all the rules. And the same goes for the practical part. This one is one where we’re all more or less in the same situation. It’s just a set of movements that we’re not familiar with and we need to rehearse and automate them. At first you struggle greatly coordinating all your limbs in changing gears and using the clutch, while paying attention to the mirrors, and making sure you give way when you have to. To learn more efficiently we have to be able to create a clear mental image of the process in our minds, breakdown the task as much as possible, and rehearse one piece at a time. Some people are more familiar with the process of learning and learn more quickly. Others struggle more. But in the end everyone learns. And once learnt to drive, it just becomes second nature. Although, before having learnt to drive, the people who were struggling the most were really not thinking it would ever be possible. And they even have all the evidence of everyone driving cars in front of their eyes. But if you talked to one of them you would have easily been able to pick up his/her uncertainty about his/her potential for success. But there’s absolutely no doubt that everyone can learn.

Now, this is all to show that, although with a certain mindset it’s really hard to believe certain things can be done (especially if you don’t have everyone doing such things in front of your eyes all the time) once you have done them yourself, it becomes evident that it was all just a matter of perspective.

This is the case even for self development. Self development, as I mean it, is an internal process of expansion of your perception of “me” and it’s something that requires you to do certain things at which you can become skilled at.
At the foundation of the theory of neotribalism, I have a theory of self development/personality change that draws from a fairly broad literature. And I think it’s my knowledge and direct experience of this stuff that informs me to see past the problems that you’re raising. The comments you made make me feel like we are speaking two different languages. So I’ll try and give a little introduction of where I’m coming from, so that it might seem a little more clear that the terms soulfulness, mindfulness, and process skills refer to something specific that, without knowing the literature I have in mind, would be really hard to make sense of, and hopefully you'll be able to glimpse the tail of the thread tying everything together.

The scientific enterprise has been dedicating a methodical inquiry into this area for over a century and very effective models for personality change have been put together. The ones that I draw mostly from are Gendlin’s process model and Diana Fosha’s Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy.
Gendling’s work is especially interesting, with his fellows at the University of Chicago they surveyed plenty of psychotherapy sessions recorded on tape and started noticing a pattern. Some people that had a certain skill would go through psychotherapy successfully, while the ones who didn’t have such skill, no matter how hard they and their therapist tried, would just fail at bringing real changes in their life. What seemed most tragic to Gendlin & co. was that, once identified clearly this skill, from the very first session with a patient it was obvious what the outcome of the therapy would be. And these people would carry on with therapy for years, all just for nothing. They then explained their findings to their undergraduate students and soon even them could also easily identify what patients would succeed and what would fail just by looking at the recording of the first therapy session.
Well, this skill, Gendlin named it “focusing”. It is the ability to contact what he calls the “felt sense”. The felt sense is the inner experience of your entire mind-body complex, an experience that is preverbal and is the ground of all meaning. It could also be thought of as your bodily sentience/intelligence. To give you a quick taste of what it is, imagine you have to explain some philosophical ideas to a kid and hence have to reformulate your exposition of the topic with simpler words. You’ll have to stop several times to think about the right word to use. When you stop to think of the right word, where is it that you’re looking? You have a felt sensation of what you want to say, you know the meaning of it, just don’t know the word for it yet. In that moment you are contacting your felt sense. Focusing is the skill of relating a perception/sensation/idea (which Gendlin summarises under the term ‘symbol’) with the felt sense, and letting the internal process unfold. It is a process skill. The resulting theory of personality change can be read here: https://focusing.org/gendlin/docs/gol-2145
People who have particular troubles to access this skill, maybe only with regards to certain particular areas of their life, can learn it quickly thanks to Diana Fosha’s AEDP. You can read ‘The Transforming Power Of Affect: A Model For Accelerated Change’ to learn more about it. But to put it simply, it just says that affective relationships are the fastest way for people to learn process skills.
I’ve just switched from the singular to the plural because we could think of the skill to let internal processes unfold as being just one, but differentiation according to separate functional frameworks seems to be instrumental in learning this skill. For example, Internal Family System therapy by Richard Schwartz is particularly functional for dealing with trauma. Process oriented psychotherapy by Arnold Mindell is particularly functional for significance and understanding. Mindfulness as popularized by Jon Kabat-Zinn is particularly functional for attunement and relationships.
The theory of self development/personality change that I’m working on is based on this whole new paradigm which we might call process/relational paradigm (and this certainly needs further explanation to understand clearly why process and why relational) and it includes all of these different schools of psychotherapy and more. They’re all like different parts of driving a car. There’s the clutch, the steering wheel, the shift, and so on.
Just like learning to drive a car, learning these skills can be done even if it seems impossible before having learnt them. With a good educational system, human facilitators, and facilitating environments, I would argue the challenge can be matched by anyone (more on facilitation later).

So, finally coming back to your comment, having difficulty doing things that seem basic is not a barrier at all to the possibility of learning.


-1- wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:40 pm

If you want to get away from survival-related passions, and rid humans of all of them, I don't think there would be a passion left.

- Horizontal collaboration. It is one of the strongest survival elements not only in our species, but in all society-forming species: that we live in hierarchically structured social constructs. You say you can change this by psychological upbringing... but that means controlling some others, and bang, you're back in square one, in the hierarchical structure.
Yeah, I have to be more precise here. I agree that passion and curiosity have evolved out of a survival pressure, just like anything about us. There’s really no escape from that, since it has been the condition of creatures on earth from the beginning. In fact, even the adaptation to this new paradigm of Neotribalism is a survival game. As I said earlier, self development is the new adaptive tendency of the 21st century; if you don’t adapt you go extinct. But what I’m arguing here is that the emotional pathways of curiosity and passion are the ones that have to trigger our behavioural system, not the emotional pathways of threat and fear. Emotions are algorithms that can evaluate the situation in a split second and act subconsciously biasing your cognition and behaviour. This is why I’ve said that the soulfulness trait entails to be able to soothe one’s sense of survival anxiety (which is a process skill). It’s because our autonomic nervous system can perceive things and put us in states that are not functional for optimal learning and horizontal collaboration. Passion, curiosity, and mindful mutual care are the optimal states toward these ends. Very commonly evident illustrations can be made: if at school you have a teacher that’s really passionate and makes you curious about his topic and conveys that passion to you, you learn much more, much better; in a community where everyone loves each other and helps each other out, no resources are wasted in trying to dominate each other in order to obtain a safer position up the hierarchy, which is what would happen if everyone was running on fear, but people are allowed to work and collaborate horizontally according to what their purpose dictate, purpose which will inform what their passions and curiosities will be about.
This ability to collaborate and love each other is also a process skill that can be mastered with the technique of Internal Family System that I mentioned earlier. While the ability to find meaning/purpose is very much linked with the expansion of the perception of “me”, which requires a synergy of all the process skills.
So, what I’m saying is that passion and curiosity have to be harnessed as our drives to do work and that they have to be based on an expanded sense of “me” because otherwise one can have very selfish curiosities and passions that don’t actually create horizontal collaboration.

While on the point that psychological upbringing means to control the people that you’re trying to upbring, I would say that instead psychological growth means emancipation of the person from being guided by external dynamics/people, i.e. not very much controllable by dominating forces. In fact, try to bring people through a self development path is impossible. You can only inspire them and then facilitate their journey if they already want to go through it themselves. This is why earlier I called 'facilitators' the people who are going to help in this effort. A facilitator is like a tool that lends itself to the person in need. A neo-tribal facilitator doesn't establish his position as one of dominance, he works toward giving you a chance to be his peer. Ultimately, doing a fast forward in this dynamic to see where it leads, we will all be facilitators of each other, meaning we will be in a great mutually caring and supportive relationship. And this is not vertical hierarchy, this is horizontal network.

___________________________

To sum up, in order to contextualise what I said in that first draft on the traits needed in the neo-human and hopefully enrich your perspective on such, I've tried to introduce you more to the most foundational part of the theory of neo-tribalism, the theory of self development. I've mentioned some crucial names that I draw from and hopefully I've made evident (and if I haven't I'll make it explicit now) that I'm trying to use a language that refers to specific things and, although still not fully well thought out and defined with technical precision, that's what I'm striving for: a fully technical jargon.
I have not included anything about the transition phase and the actual vision for the society of the future, since they come later.
I have found writing this reply to be very useful for me and deeply enjoyable. I hope it sparked some more curiosity and created more questions and doubts which I'd be very happy to hear.

Age
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Envelope wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:26 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:40 pm

- process-skilled: I can't operate my cell phone. Nuff said.
Lol

I know what you mean though. It’s hard to enter a paradigm of learning when stuck in a paradigm of stasis. I’ll take the chance to pick up the whole problem from a larger angle and rehearse my ability to contextualize it in a framework where there’s space for solutions, and only at the end I'll tackle your answer directly.

I think the traditional culture-formation trend in history has been that of creating situations of stability and predictability. Although, with the progression of our journey on earth as human race we’ve naturally come to a point where our system is naturally requiring increasingly more people to become constant learners in order to keep being highly optimized for production. The dynamic nature of the system of the future is already embedded in the system of today. So the paradigm shift from a human being that grows into a static creature to a human being that grows into a creator in constant exploration and production I think is already embedded in the structure of our civilization and is going to be what we might call a natural environmental pressure on our evolution.

So, given the state of things, it follows quite logically that self development will be the new adaptive tendency for the humans of the 21st century. And, as I was saying, shifting mental paradigm is tough, but it’s possible. A very common situation to use as an analogy to illustrate both the toughness of shifting paradigm and also its factual possibility is when we learn how to drive a car. There are some people that struggle with it so much, even with the theoretical side of it, which to me seemed very silly at the time. It just seemed so easy to me, it’s just a bunch of rules and you just have to understand the super simple logic behind them, imagine yourself in the situation, and boom, permanently stored in memory. But there were people that really had no idea how to perform such task of learning. Although, once they spent enough time on it, they too felt fairly confident about all the rules. And the same goes for the practical part. This one is one where we’re all more or less in the same situation. It’s just a set of movements that we’re not familiar with and we need to rehearse and automate them. At first you struggle greatly coordinating all your limbs in changing gears and using the clutch, while paying attention to the mirrors, and making sure you give way when you have to. To learn more efficiently we have to be able to create a clear mental image of the process in our minds, breakdown the task as much as possible, and rehearse one piece at a time. Some people are more familiar with the process of learning and learn more quickly. Others struggle more. But in the end everyone learns. And once learnt to drive, it just becomes second nature. Although, before having learnt to drive, the people who were struggling the most were really not thinking it would ever be possible. And they even have all the evidence of everyone driving cars in front of their eyes. But if you talked to one of them you would have easily been able to pick up his/her uncertainty about his/her potential for success. But there’s absolutely no doubt that everyone can learn.

Now, this is all to show that, although with a certain mindset it’s really hard to believe certain things can be done (especially if you don’t have everyone doing such things in front of your eyes all the time) once you have done them yourself, it becomes evident that it was all just a matter of perspective.

This is the case even for self development. Self development, as I mean it, is an internal process of expansion of your perception of “me” and it’s something that requires you to do certain things at which you can become skilled at.
At the foundation of the theory of neotribalism, I have a theory of self development/personality change that draws from a fairly broad literature. And I think it’s my knowledge and direct experience of this stuff that informs me to see past the problems that you’re raising. The comments you made make me feel like we are speaking two different languages. So I’ll try and give a little introduction of where I’m coming from, so that it might seem a little more clear that the terms soulfulness, mindfulness, and process skills refer to something specific that, without knowing the literature I have in mind, would be really hard to make sense of, and hopefully you'll be able to glimpse the tail of the thread tying everything together.

The scientific enterprise has been dedicating a methodical inquiry into this area for over a century and very effective models for personality change have been put together. The ones that I draw mostly from are Gendlin’s process model and Diana Fosha’s Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy.
Gendling’s work is especially interesting, with his fellows at the University of Chicago they surveyed plenty of psychotherapy sessions recorded on tape and started noticing a pattern. Some people that had a certain skill would go through psychotherapy successfully, while the ones who didn’t have such skill, no matter how hard they and their therapist tried, would just fail at bringing real changes in their life. What seemed most tragic to Gendlin & co. was that, once identified clearly this skill, from the very first session with a patient it was obvious what the outcome of the therapy would be. And these people would carry on with therapy for years, all just for nothing. They then explained their findings to their undergraduate students and soon even them could also easily identify what patients would succeed and what would fail just by looking at the recording of the first therapy session.
Well, this skill, Gendlin named it “focusing”. It is the ability to contact what he calls the “felt sense”. The felt sense is the inner experience of your entire mind-body complex, an experience that is preverbal and is the ground of all meaning. It could also be thought of as your bodily sentience/intelligence. To give you a quick taste of what it is, imagine you have to explain some philosophical ideas to a kid and hence have to reformulate your exposition of the topic with simpler words. You’ll have to stop several times to think about the right word to use. When you stop to think of the right word, where is it that you’re looking? You have a felt sensation of what you want to say, you know the meaning of it, just don’t know the word for it yet. In that moment you are contacting your felt sense. Focusing is the skill of relating a perception/sensation/idea (which Gendlin summarises under the term ‘symbol’) with the felt sense, and letting the internal process unfold. It is a process skill. The resulting theory of personality change can be read here: https://focusing.org/gendlin/docs/gol-2145
People who have particular troubles to access this skill, maybe only with regards to certain particular areas of their life, can learn it quickly thanks to Diana Fosha’s AEDP. You can read ‘The Transforming Power Of Affect: A Model For Accelerated Change’ to learn more about it. But to put it simply, it just says that affective relationships are the fastest way for people to learn process skills.
I’ve just switched from the singular to the plural because we could think of the skill to let internal processes unfold as being just one, but differentiation according to separate functional frameworks seems to be instrumental in learning this skill. For example, Internal Family System therapy by Richard Schwartz is particularly functional for dealing with trauma. Process oriented psychotherapy by Arnold Mindell is particularly functional for significance and understanding. Mindfulness as popularized by Jon Kabat-Zinn is particularly functional for attunement and relationships.
The theory of self development/personality change that I’m working on is based on this whole new paradigm which we might call process/relational paradigm (and this certainly needs further explanation to understand clearly why process and why relational) and it includes all of these different schools of psychotherapy and more. They’re all like different parts of driving a car. There’s the clutch, the steering wheel, the shift, and so on.
Just like learning to drive a car, learning these skills can be done even if it seems impossible before having learnt them. With a good educational system, human facilitators, and facilitating environments, I would argue the challenge can be matched by anyone (more on facilitation later).

So, finally coming back to your comment, having difficulty doing things that seem basic is not a barrier at all to the possibility of learning.


-1- wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:40 pm

If you want to get away from survival-related passions, and rid humans of all of them, I don't think there would be a passion left.

- Horizontal collaboration. It is one of the strongest survival elements not only in our species, but in all society-forming species: that we live in hierarchically structured social constructs. You say you can change this by psychological upbringing... but that means controlling some others, and bang, you're back in square one, in the hierarchical structure.
Yeah, I have to be more precise here. I agree that passion and curiosity have evolved out of a survival pressure, just like anything about us. There’s really no escape from that, since it has been the condition of creatures on earth from the beginning. In fact, even the adaptation to this new paradigm of Neotribalism is a survival game. As I said earlier, self development is the new adaptive tendency of the 21st century; if you don’t adapt you go extinct. But what I’m arguing here is that the emotional pathways of curiosity and passion are the ones that have to trigger our behavioural system, not the emotional pathways of threat and fear. Emotions are algorithms that can evaluate the situation in a split second and act subconsciously biasing your cognition and behaviour. This is why I’ve said that the soulfulness trait entails to be able to soothe one’s sense of survival anxiety (which is a process skill). It’s because our autonomic nervous system can perceive things and put us in states that are not functional for optimal learning and horizontal collaboration. Passion, curiosity, and mindful mutual care are the optimal states toward these ends. Very commonly evident illustrations can be made: if at school you have a teacher that’s really passionate and makes you curious about his topic and conveys that passion to you, you learn much more, much better; in a community where everyone loves each other and helps each other out, no resources are wasted in trying to dominate each other in order to obtain a safer position up the hierarchy, which is what would happen if everyone was running on fear, but people are allowed to work and collaborate horizontally according to what their purpose dictate, purpose which will inform what their passions and curiosities will be about.
This ability to collaborate and love each other is also a process skill that can be mastered with the technique of Internal Family System that I mentioned earlier. While the ability to find meaning/purpose is very much linked with the expansion of the perception of “me”, which requires a synergy of all the process skills.
So, what I’m saying is that passion and curiosity have to be harnessed as our drives to do work and that they have to be based on an expanded sense of “me” because otherwise one can have very selfish curiosities and passions that don’t actually create horizontal collaboration.

While on the point that psychological upbringing means to control the people that you’re trying to upbring, I would say that instead psychological growth means emancipation of the person from being guided by external dynamics/people, i.e. not very much controllable by dominating forces. In fact, try to bring people through a self development path is impossible. You can only inspire them and then facilitate their journey if they already want to go through it themselves. This is why earlier I called 'facilitators' the people who are going to help in this effort. A facilitator is like a tool that lends itself to the person in need. A neo-tribal facilitator doesn't establish his position as one of dominance, he works toward giving you a chance to be his peer. Ultimately, doing a fast forward in this dynamic to see where it leads, we will all be facilitators of each other, meaning we will be in a great mutually caring and supportive relationship. And this is not vertical hierarchy, this is horizontal network.

___________________________

To sum up, in order to contextualise what I said in that first draft on the traits needed in the neo-human and hopefully enrich your perspective on such, I've tried to introduce you more to the most foundational part of the theory of neo-tribalism, the theory of self development. I've mentioned some crucial names that I draw from and hopefully I've made evident (and if I haven't I'll make it explicit now) that I'm trying to use a language that refers to specific things and, although still not fully well thought out and defined with technical precision, that's what I'm striving for: a fully technical jargon.
I have not included anything about the transition phase and the actual vision for the society of the future, since they come later.
I have found writing this reply to be very useful for me and deeply enjoyable. I hope it sparked some more curiosity and created more questions and doubts which I'd be very happy to hear.
I like what your views are looking towards and what that way of life is and how it will be/could be achieve. However, to me, it does seem a long drawn out way you are describing to reach living that way. I found that way of life you allude to can be reached/ achieved much quicker by just being truly honest, in the beginning. If some one seriously wants to change them self, personality, and/or behavior, then by just being truly honest, about the wrong they do, then they become truly open, and when one is truly open then they cannot not learn, and then if they are truly serious about self development and self change, then who they truly are just naturally reveals Its Self. Self realisation just happens without even intending to.

The reason people are slow in the learning process skill is because of their assumptions, beliefs, and disbelifs that they maintain and hold onto.

Absolutely EVERY thing in Life is simple and easy, but if one believes otherwise, then 'that' MUST BE what it IS.

Personality changing with self development and a Self realization, which leads towards full KNOWING of thy Self is an extremely simple and easy process, that is; once you KNOW how to do it. But once this process skilled is learned, then it is like driving a car, or riding a bike, once you learned it you never forget.

Changing for the better, and helping and supporting EVERY one else just becomes a natural way of life, which, in turn, leads to a truly harmonious and peaceful world for Everyone.

Atla
Posts: 2491
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Atla » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:25 pm

Envelope wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:13 pm
-1- wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:05 am

Let's work on one piece at a time. The task at hand is to decide by speculative methods what behaviour modifications that CAN be implemented on a mass scale which will produce what changes (beneficial ones, hopefully) in society's responses.
Ok, I've written down a little draft and kept it short because I'd rather follow the thread of your questions than that of my thoughts.

A human in our current society is still essentially an animal in a struggle for survival, a creature at the mercy of its environment and its needs, therefore only surviving because of our sociality. Our psychology reflects this state of being and therefore we adopt and solidify all sort of defense mechanisms of our perceived self in order to remain alive. The situation is not black and white of course, there are many people that are less survival oriented, but in general this is the condition we come from.
Instead, the Neotribal society is not based on such a human anymore. The individual of Neotribalism should be:
- Soulful: able to run on curiosity and passion (which entails the ability to soothe one's own sense of survival anxiety and the ability to find meaning, and that leads to horizontal collaboration/connection with others)
- Mindful: aware of their sense of agency as a consequence of their creativity and therefore happy to take responsibility for preserving themselves and their environment
- Process-Skilled: able to let life flow into its process and hence overcome any obstacle

The more I study neuroscience and psychology the more I'm confident that a person can be educated and shaped since birth into having these traits, or one can even learn them from adult age.

These behavioural modifications, when reached a certain critical mass, will produce a society that doesn't organize it self in little families that stick together for being stronger against life's harsh conditions and survive and reproduce, but humans that connect skilfully and mindfully with each other out of a deep connection with their purpose and care for each other, forming functional affinity groups that easily take care of survival needs and set out to experience and explore the world in all its depths. Not a society where if you want a person to work seriously and be productive you have to pay her, but a society where passion, curiosity, and mutual care are the natural drive of human work. Therefore not a society where human collaboration is hierarchical, but one where collaboration is horizontal.

The main effort that has to be done to create this critical mass is to diffuse a culture of self-development with clear information and useful tools, which I find to be already happening at higher and higher rates.

What do you think? What are the doubts? I'm sure there are many, open fire! :)
The other 89871465 visionaries before you (with the same general idea) also didn't take into account that the average human is too fucking stupid, has too low intelligence. Their personalities just can't be altered enough.

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 2833
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by -1- » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:43 am

Atla wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:25 pm

The other 89871465 visionaries before you (with the same general idea) also didn't take into account that the average human is too fucking stupid, has too low intelligence. Their personalities just can't be altered enough.
However, Professional Personality Alterers (PPAs) will be adding to the general circulation of currency, which WILL help the economy.

I mean, piano teachers earn a decent living. But how many of the total of them will raise a Mozart, a Beethoven, a Keith Emerson? The same difference applies.

Envelope
Posts: 15
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am

Age wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:47 pm

I like what your views are looking towards and what that way of life is and how it will be/could be achieve. However, to me, it does seem a long drawn out way you are describing to reach living that way. I found that way of life you allude to can be reached/ achieved much quicker by just being truly honest, in the beginning. If some one seriously wants to change them self, personality, and/or behavior, then by just being truly honest, about the wrong they do, then they become truly open, and when one is truly open then they cannot not learn, and then if they are truly serious about self development and self change, then who they truly are just naturally reveals Its Self. Self realisation just happens without even intending to.

The reason people are slow in the learning process skill is because of their assumptions, beliefs, and disbelifs that they maintain and hold onto.

Absolutely EVERY thing in Life is simple and easy, but if one believes otherwise, then 'that' MUST BE what it IS.

Personality changing with self development and a Self realization, which leads towards full KNOWING of thy Self is an extremely simple and easy process, that is; once you KNOW how to do it. But once this process skilled is learned, then it is like driving a car, or riding a bike, once you learned it you never forget.

Changing for the better, and helping and supporting EVERY one else just becomes a natural way of life, which, in turn, leads to a truly harmonious and peaceful world for Everyone.
Hi buddy, thanks for your comments and sorry if it took me a while before engaging with you.
In your first comment you also mentioned the importance of self-honesty and I'm totally with you on this point. You also mentioned the importance of asking why we behave in certain ways, which is a self-reflective attitude that, likewise, I think is key to self development. But I’m gonna quote your first message:
Age wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:05 am
Once people learn and understand why they are greedy and continually behave in the obviously wrong ways that they do, then they will know WHY they do what they do what they do, once you know the WHY some thing happens only then you are able to prevent it from reoccurring and/or stop it from continually occurring.
Finding people who are honest enough to admit that they are greedy and behave in very wrong ways so that they can learn WHY they do what they do so that then they can truly change for the better is another matter.
This other matter which you are not going into here is the matter that I’m trying to take care of. In your last post you went a step further and identified assumptions, beliefs, and disbeliefs that people hold onto as the cause for not being able to honestly self-reflect. But still we’re missing a model of how humans get past those attachments to assumptions and beliefs. The jargon that I am using now—but which I’m looking to either substantiate with neuroscience or to change—for referring to the attachments to assumptions and beliefs is “stopped processes”. Reactivating stopped processes is the whole point of the model of self development that I’m working on. And the theory has to be very universal because, as Atla and previously Impentinent have pointed out, there is a huge variety of people, and each one is at a different point. This implies that practically each person will have to work on themselves in different ways and different amounts, although all of them will have to reactivate stopped processes. That’s what process skills are all about: facilitating this reactivation.

The whole point of these theories I'm working on is just to create the most universal formulas possible to navigate the world. It’s not to create a series of programs or political agendas for people to act out. As I said previously, the world is already going to put pressure on us to change our behaviour. So this is just an effort to understand what are the mechanisms at play so that we can be empowered to respond to this pressure at best.

Do you not find that what you proposed earlier is analogous to saying "if you want to play guitar you are going to have to put your finger in such position on the fretboard for the C chord, and such position for the D chord, etc"? While what I'm trying to focus on is how do you actually make yourself do such things? In Italian we have an expression that goes "tra il dire e il fare c'è di mezzo il mare" literally meaning between saying and doing there's a sea in between. It refers to our tendency to want to do things but actually failing at sticking to our programs (take new year's resolutions for example). A model for crossing that sea is the kind of self development model that is needed I reckon. And then on this basis we could start thinking more about society and the extended repercussions.

What are your thoughts? Have you had experiences of not being able to stick to things you wanted to do? Or simply experienced yourself as being clueless in figuring out what to do in a certain situation? Or unable to cope with your experience?
I'm keen to dig further into this.

Age
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 am

Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Age wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:47 pm

I like what your views are looking towards and what that way of life is and how it will be/could be achieve. However, to me, it does seem a long drawn out way you are describing to reach living that way. I found that way of life you allude to can be reached/ achieved much quicker by just being truly honest, in the beginning. If some one seriously wants to change them self, personality, and/or behavior, then by just being truly honest, about the wrong they do, then they become truly open, and when one is truly open then they cannot not learn, and then if they are truly serious about self development and self change, then who they truly are just naturally reveals Its Self. Self realisation just happens without even intending to.

The reason people are slow in the learning process skill is because of their assumptions, beliefs, and disbelifs that they maintain and hold onto.

Absolutely EVERY thing in Life is simple and easy, but if one believes otherwise, then 'that' MUST BE what it IS.

Personality changing with self development and a Self realization, which leads towards full KNOWING of thy Self is an extremely simple and easy process, that is; once you KNOW how to do it. But once this process skilled is learned, then it is like driving a car, or riding a bike, once you learned it you never forget.

Changing for the better, and helping and supporting EVERY one else just becomes a natural way of life, which, in turn, leads to a truly harmonious and peaceful world for Everyone.
Hi buddy, thanks for your comments and sorry if it took me a while before engaging with you.
In your first comment you also mentioned the importance of self-honesty and I'm totally with you on this point. You also mentioned the importance of asking why we behave in certain ways, which is a self-reflective attitude that, likewise, I think is key to self development. But I’m gonna quote your first message:
Age wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:05 am
Once people learn and understand why they are greedy and continually behave in the obviously wrong ways that they do, then they will know WHY they do what they do what they do, once you know the WHY some thing happens only then you are able to prevent it from reoccurring and/or stop it from continually occurring.
Finding people who are honest enough to admit that they are greedy and behave in very wrong ways so that they can learn WHY they do what they do so that then they can truly change for the better is another matter.
This other matter which you are not going into here is the matter that I’m trying to take care of.
Okay, perfect. This is the only matter that I have yet to work out. So, if you can take care of this part, then that would be great. What I have set out to create can then be finally reached.

So, how do you, or we, find people who are honest enough?

Do you know of anyone who is truly honest? Are you, in fact, honest enough to openly admit ALL of your greedy and wrong behaviors?
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
In your last post you went a step further and identified assumptions, beliefs, and disbeliefs that people hold onto as the cause for not being able to honestly self-reflect. But still we’re missing a model of how humans get past those attachments to assumptions and beliefs.
For beliefs and/or disbeliefs, then this is easy, just do NOT ever have any beliefs nor disbeliefs.

Stopping oneself from always inadvertently making assumptions is not as easy, but is very possible and with just about every thing improves the more we do it. The less assuming we do, the better we become at not making assumptions.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
The jargon that I am using now—but which I’m looking to either substantiate with neuroscience or to change—for referring to the attachments to assumptions and beliefs is “stopped processes”.
Okay. The process to stop having/holding onto beliefs and to stop making assumptions is called "stopped processes".

The word/thought STOP works perfectly well and very simply and easily in the 'stopping process' of doing some thing.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Reactivating stopped processes is the whole point of the model of self development that I’m working on.
Like ALL human processes/behaviors, they are controlled by thoughts. So, reactivating stopped process is just about the easiest thing to do, that is; when we tell ourselves to STOP.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
And the theory has to be very universal because, as Atla and previously Impentinent have pointed out, there is a huge variety of people, and each one is at a different point.
Does it really need to be told that people ARE different?

'There is a huge variety of people' does not need expressing as it is completely obvious that ALL people are different.

By the very nature of being a human being, we ARE different.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
This implies that practically each person will have to work on themselves in different ways and different amounts, although all of them will have to reactivate stopped processes. That’s what process skills are all about: facilitating this reactivation.
Do you have any examples of 'facilitating this reactivation'?

I would suggest just use the STOP word.

Also, the only people I see that will have to work on themselves in different ways and different amounts are the two groups of separate people I observe. Although I generally do not separate any thing, I do however do this with human beings. There are two groups of human beings who I see need to work on themselves in different way and different amounts. Those two groups are:

Adult human beings. And,
The children of adult human beings.

Adults have to work on themselves, all the time. Children do NOT have to work on themselves, ever. When exactly children transfer into adults is not up to me to decide and I will leave that decision up to ALL of you to make, accept, and agree upon, together.

Children do NOT have to take responsibility to work on themselves, ever, because they did NOT create the "world" they live in, and they did not ask to be brought into this type of "world". Adults, however, do create the "world", and thus the life that we all have to live in. Therefore, adults have to take responsibility for the wrong they do, which is creating this life we are all in now.

I found that IF adults were to work on themselves by being truly Honest, truly Open, and seriously Wanting to change for the better, then they can change, for the better, which in turn will create a much better life for EVERY one.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
The whole point of these theories I'm working on is just to create the most universal formulas possible to navigate the world.
To me, a 'theory' is just some thing that can be falsified, so why formulate any thing that could be false anyway. Instead why not just look at how things work or how they are?

To me, the formula needed for creating a truly peaceful "world" for everyone is just HOW. Being Honest, Open, and Wanting to change, for the better, is the universal formula for 'navigating' or creating the "world" that we all want to live in, that is; a truly peaceful and harmonious world.

That simple HOW formula leads to learning and gaining the know-HOW to gaining the answers to ALL of life's meaningful questions.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
It’s not to create a series of programs or political agendas for people to act out.
Well that kind of attempt to "fix" things has obviously NEVER worked. There is a whole human existence that is evidence of this.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
As I said previously, the world is already going to put pressure on us to change our behaviour. So this is just an effort to understand what are the mechanisms at play so that we can be empowered to respond to this pressure at best.
I found just Honesty is the key to unlocking the, previous, secrets/mysteries to all of this.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Do you not find that what you proposed earlier is analogous to saying "if you want to play guitar you are going to have to put your finger in such position on the fretboard for the C chord, and such position for the D chord, etc"?
It might be, but I did not look at it like that, thus never found that. All I am saying is if you want to learn how to live the life you truly want, that is; a truly peaceful and harmonious life, then, if you are just completely Honest, you will become truly Open, and from which you can not then not learn. I am NOT saying you have to do any thing else specifically like what you propose here.

If a person does not want to be truly Honest, then that is perfectly fine with me. I KNOW exactly WHY they are the way they are. I am not here to tell any one what to do, force any one to do any thing, nor persuade any one of any thing. I am just saying what I had found.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
While what I'm trying to focus on is how do you actually make yourself do such things?
The exact same way you "make" yourself do any thing. That is; with thought.

The only reason you do any thing is because of thought AND want.

EVERY thing you do is because you want to do it, which comes from thought.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
In Italian we have an expression that goes "tra il dire e il fare c'è di mezzo il mare" literally meaning between saying and doing there's a sea in between.
That sea could be the sea of 'want'.

One could say to them self, "I want to lose weight". But do they Truly or Seriously want this. We can all say we want some thing, but seriously we really want some thing else, or we do not want some thing as much as we say we want it. I may "want to lose weight", but I may "want a piece of that cake while sitting on the sofa" more. We have to seriously want some thing to obtain it, not just want it but truthfully want some thing else.

This 'sea of want' is why I continually say If you really want to live in a truly peaceful "world", then you have to be Honest, Open, and seriously Want (or seriously Willing) to change, for the better.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
It refers to our tendency to want to do things but actually failing at sticking to our programs (take new year's resolutions for example). A model for crossing that sea is the kind of self development model that is needed I reckon. And then on this basis we could start thinking more about society and the extended repercussions.
If you want to 'cross that sea', then just REALLY want to do.

If you seriously or REALLY want some thing, then you will go and do what is needed to achieve or obtain it. Otherwise it is nothing more than just words we say to ourselves.

Contradictory here, however, is that the words we say/use to ourselves have far more importance than realized yet.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
What are your thoughts?
In regards to what exactly?

The thoughts within this head do NOT stop. Unless of course I tell them to STOP, in which case they do. I have managed to achieve this "stopped process" for the staggering amount of time of about three or maybe four seconds, at the most. The rest of the time I like to be AWARE or CONSCIOUS of what thoughts are actually appearing/arising within this body. But, which, in all honesty, does not happen as often and for as long as I truly like.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Have you had experiences of not being able to stick to things you wanted to do?
Yes. I have, for example, being wanting to learn how to express my views, for on twenty years and nine months now, while being fully understood and not misinterpreted in anyway, but there has been plenty of times of not being able to stick with this and so I have just gone and done other things instead.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Or simply experienced yourself as being clueless in figuring out what to do in a certain situation?
In the last twenty years I can not think of any thing immediately now, but there may have been times.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
Or unable to cope with your experience?
No. If I was unable to cope, then I would not be here, now.
Envelope wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:55 am
I'm keen to dig further into this.
Great. I truly love this kind of discussion. I can and will go as far as you like. The deeper we dig, to me, the more that gets unraveled and revealed, and, uncovered and discovered.

If you can find me the people who truly want to be Honest about their wrong doings, and seriously want to change, for the better, then what can and will be revealed is far more than could have even been imagined, previously.

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