Healthcare Workers should be Fired

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
commonsense
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by commonsense »

Anyone who works in a hospital, a clinic, or as an EMT or Paramedic should be fired for refusing to be vaccinated against locally prevalent communicable diseases, including COVID.

Medical workers, including professionals, unlicensed employees and support staff, are providers of healing services. Patient safety is paramount. Without patients medical workers would have no reason for employment.

Regardless of explicit conditions of employment, healthcare workers toil under an implied contract to ensure the safety of all who come to them for care. Everything they are hired to do is for the benefit of patients. The patient always comes first.

There are no medical conditions, other than allergy to the vaccine or its components and age less than 12 years, that contraindicate the administration of a COVID vaccine.

There are religions that proscribe the administration of vaccines and these religions must be respected. However, respect for and commitment to the safety of patients takes precedence in the privilege of caring for patients.

Anyone who disagrees does not belong in medicine.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:16 am Anyone who works in a hospital, a clinic, or as an EMT or Paramedic should be fired for refusing to be vaccinated against locally prevalent communicable diseases, including COVID.
If a significant number of medical folks (includin' docs) are refusin' the jab, mebbe you oughta be askin' yourself what do these people know that I don't?

-----

SURVEY: Most doctors are skipping Covid-19 vaccine
DATED: JUNE 18, 2021 BY SHARYL ATTKISSON 7 COMMENTS

The following is an excerpt from the a post by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

Of the 700 physicians responding to an internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), nearly 60 percent said they were not “fully vaccinated” against COVID.

This contrasts with the claim by the American Medical Association that 96 percent of practicing physicians are fully vaccinated. This was based on 300 respondents.

Neither survey represents a random sample of all American physicians, but the AAPS survey shows that physician support for the mass injection campaign is far from unanimous.

“It is wrong to call a person who declines a shot an ‘anti-vaxxer,’” states AAPS executive director Jane Orient, M.D. “Virtually no physicians are ‘anti-antibiotics’ or ‘anti-surgery,’ whereas all are opposed to treatments that they think are unnecessary, more likely to harm than to benefit an individual patient, or inadequately tested.”

The AAPS survey also showed that 54 percent of physician respondents were aware of patients suffering a “significant adverse reaction.” Of the unvaccinated physicians, 80 percent said “I believe risk of shots exceeds risk of disease,” and 30% said “I already had COVID.”

https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/06/pol ... 9-vaccine/

-----

Vaccine mandates will backfire. People will resist even more.
Persuading, not dictating, is how Biden can avoid a crisis of legitimacy.

By Taylor Dotson and
Nicholas Tampio

July 31, 2021 at 12:43 p.m. EDT


In recent weeks, calls for vaccine mandates have increasingly been heard: In a column headlined “Stop pleading with anti-vaxxers and start mandating vaccinations,” The Washington Post’s Max Boot implored President Biden to “stop making reasonable appeals to those who will not listen to reason.” Former Health and Human Services secretary Kathleen Sebelius lamented that “we’re going to tiptoe around mandates,” and she’s “kind of over that.” A coalition of medical professional organizations, including the American Medical Association, has asked for “all health care and long-term care employers to require their employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19.”

Meanwhile, there’s a top-down push to get reluctant citizens vaccinated: The White House and the Department of Education partnered with colleges and universities on a “Covid-19 College Vaccine Challenge.” On Monday, the Department of Veterans Affairs became the first federal agency to mandate vaccinations for more than 100,000 of its employees. On Thursday, Biden announced that civilian federal workers must be vaccinated or submit to regular coronavirus testing.

But if this rhetoric and these efforts lead to a de facto national vaccine mandate, it will backfire: Americans from all walks of life resist being told what to put into their bodies, and many will resent any politician or institution that makes them get vaccinated, creating a crisis of legitimacy for any government, university or business that forces constituents, students or employees to get vaccinated. Indeed, the president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association has already said, “There will be a lot of pushback” from members of his organization against the federal employee mandate.

There’s been a lot of hand-wringing about partisan vaccine resistance — according to a recent Economist/YouGov poll, 29 percent of Republicans say they won’t get vaccinated, compared to 4 percent of Democrats — but that doesn’t tell the whole story. In mid-June, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, when parents of children ages 12 and older (the youngest group authorized for vaccination) were asked by Kaiser Family if they would get their children vaccinated, 18 percent said they would wait and see, 10 percent said they would if required and 25 percent said “definitely not.” As FiveThirtyEight’s Geoffrey Skelley explains, “Unvaccinated Americans tend to be younger” and “more likely to be a person of color. The situation we’re in is not just because of politics but also because of access to the vaccine and broader skepticism of the health care system.”

I got a breakthrough covid infection. The worst part is the conflicting advice.
As Maya Goldenberg, author of “Vaccine Hesitancy: Public Trust, Expertise, and the War on Science” argues in a recent blog post, many of the vaccine-hesitant are well-educated, work in the health-care industry and have questions about how effective the vaccines are at stopping transmission, whether they’re safe to take during pregnancy or if they impact fertility.

On Thursday, The Post reported on an internal document at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that cited concerns about the effectiveness of vaccines in preventing the contraction of the delta variant of the coronavirus. On Friday, The Post reported on an analysis of CDC data from Massachusetts finding “that three-quarters of the people who became infected were fully vaccinated.”

Not only won’t mandates resolve many citizens’ concerns on these issues, they could lead many to feel that their concerns are being overlooked.

Furthermore, researchers have found that in some cases, vaccine resistance can be an expression of what the New York Times described as an ingrained “moral preference for liberty and individual rights.” Take NFL player Cole Beasley, who defiantly tweeted: [text missing]

And the more that government flexes its political muscles to urge or enforce vaccine compliance, the greater incentive there is for populist politicians to push back, reinforcing the idea that the fight over vaccines is a fight about individual liberty: Earlier this month, not long after Biden floated the idea of a door-to-door vaccination outreach effort, Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) rallied the crowd at the Conservative Political Action Conference, saying: “Don’t come knocking on my door with your ‘Fauci ouchie.’ You leave us the hell alone” — referencing Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, who has become, since last year, the public face of the nation’s vaccine response.

The debate is also about how much faith individual Americans have in the information they’re given. When Pfizer’s CEO announces that its coronavirus vaccine is 96 percent effective up to two months after a second dose, but only 84 percent effective four to six months after the second dose — on the heels of suggesting that a third “booster” shot may be needed — that raises alarm bells among skeptics. When the CDC goes back and forth on its mask-wearing guidance — loosening recommendations in May and tightening them again now — it invites the charge that public health officials are winging it, rather than making evidence-based calculations.

At a minimum, public health officials have to better educate the public about why the available vaccines are still being distributed with only an emergency-use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration, not full FDA approval. For a public accustomed to drug approval taking years, not months, the Trump administration’s fast-tracking of coronavirus vaccines, hailed by many — including (at least initially) former president Donald Trump — can raise suspicion among others.

Studies have found that mandates can provoke anger rather than encourage resisters to get vaccinated. The implementation of European-style incentives that make life more convenient for the vaccinated and less convenient for the unvaccinated could risk fostering greater resistance.

In December, Biden said he wouldn’t mandate vaccines but that he would “encourage people to do the right thing.” His position reflected an understanding of the nation he was preparing to lead: That persuading Americans — not dictating to them on how to respond to covid-19 — was both more politically tenable and would better serve his aim of bringing the pandemic under control. In June, Politico reported that the administration succeeded in increasing the vaccination rate for Hispanic Americans by relying on making vaccinations available through federally-backed community health centers. In April, Time magazine reported that the administration planned efforts to involve faith-based organizations and “organizations with ties to rural communities” in its vaccine outreach. That type of approach, with better messaging and less coercion, ought to be sustained and prioritized rather than slowly driving toward mandates.

The administration should go as far in the opposite direction as it can from those who deride vaccine skeptics, such as USA Today columnist Tom Nichols, who referred to vaccine resisters as “cynical and obstinate children” who should be shunned until they “grow up.”

Biden’s words have been measured and conciliatory, but his policies have steadily crept in the direction of the crowd that shows intolerance toward legitimate vaccine concerns.

A democracy must use democratic means — acknowledging unknowns, continuing outreach and avoiding stigmatization — even to combat something as serious and urgent as a pandemic. Making people get vaccinated, by contrast, will likely increase mistrust. Instead of “normalizing” the jab, it risks creating a permanent and hardened segment of our society, primed to oppose government efforts to deal with covid or other public health crises on the horizon.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... hesitancy/

you may have to turn javascript off to read at the site, unless you wanna subscribe
commonsense
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by commonsense »

Thanks, HQ. Yours is a lengthy but informative post.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8535
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by Sculptor »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:12 am
commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:16 am Anyone who works in a hospital, a clinic, or as an EMT or Paramedic should be fired for refusing to be vaccinated against locally prevalent communicable diseases, including COVID.
If a significant number of medical folks (includin' docs) are refusin' the jab, mebbe you oughta be askin' yourself what do these people know that I don't?
It just means that medical staff are just as suseptible to bullshit Fake News as you are - such as the lie that you post below.

-----

SURVEY: Most doctors are skipping Covid-19 vaccine
DATED: JUNE 18, 2021 BY SHARYL ATTKISSON 7 COMMENTS

The following is an excerpt from the a post by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

Of the 700 physicians responding to an internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), nearly 60 percent said they were not “fully vaccinated” against COVID.

This contrasts with the claim by the American Medical Association that 96 percent of practicing physicians are fully vaccinated. This was based on 300 respondents.

Neither survey represents a random sample of all American physicians, but the AAPS survey shows that physician support for the mass injection campaign is far from unanimous.

“It is wrong to call a person who declines a shot an ‘anti-vaxxer,’” states AAPS executive director Jane Orient, M.D. “Virtually no physicians are ‘anti-antibiotics’ or ‘anti-surgery,’ whereas all are opposed to treatments that they think are unnecessary, more likely to harm than to benefit an individual patient, or inadequately tested.”

The AAPS survey also showed that 54 percent of physician respondents were aware of patients suffering a “significant adverse reaction.” Of the unvaccinated physicians, 80 percent said “I believe risk of shots exceeds risk of disease,” and 30% said “I already had COVID.”

https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/06/pol ... 9-vaccine/
This so called "survey" is only for 700 doctors THAT CHOSE TO RESPOND on the "internet". It says that 60% are not FULLY vaccinated.
Even if this is an accurate survey, on its own merits it is next to useless.

If I thought you were capable of thinking I'd explain why.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8535
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by Sculptor »

The real deal

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/p ... ort=MRNRD0
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8535
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:16 am Anyone who works in a hospital, a clinic, or as an EMT or Paramedic should be fired for refusing to be vaccinated against locally prevalent communicable diseases, including COVID.

Medical workers, including professionals, unlicensed employees and support staff, are providers of healing services. Patient safety is paramount. Without patients medical workers would have no reason for employment.

Regardless of explicit conditions of employment, healthcare workers toil under an implied contract to ensure the safety of all who come to them for care. Everything they are hired to do is for the benefit of patients. The patient always comes first.

There are no medical conditions, other than allergy to the vaccine or its components and age less than 12 years, that contraindicate the administration of a COVID vaccine.

There are religions that proscribe the administration of vaccines and these religions must be respected. However, respect for and commitment to the safety of patients takes precedence in the privilege of caring for patients.

Anyone who disagrees does not belong in medicine.
I completely agree and do not think this transgresses upon any issue of personal freedom.
Simply the freedom of the patients to get the best service possible trumps the medical worker's freedom to work in the industry.
They can become vets if they do not like it.

I do not think we'd have a problem with sacking a waitress who refused to wash their hands after taking as a shit at work.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:02 pm The real deal

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/p ... ort=MRNRD0
As is noted in the stories I listed and linked above, as well as in your link, the AMA survey was of 300 respondents.

From your link (and mine)...

Methodology:
• AMA developed the survey questionnaire and WebMD programmed and fielded the 5–7 minute survey through their physician panel
• The survey was fielded from June 3 to June 8, 2021. • Sample size – N=301; respondent mix includes:
• N=150 PCPs (Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, General Medicine, Pediatrics, OB/GYN)
• N=151 Specialists (All other specialties)


As you say: Even if this is an accurate survey, on its own merits it is next to useless.
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

I do not think we'd have a problem with sacking a waitress who refused to wash their hands after taking as a shit at work.

How will you know the waitress didn't wash her hands?

You'll only know if customers become ill, an investigation is mounted, and the waitress is shown, by way of her poor hygiene, to be the cause of the illness.

No one stands at the door of the restroom to test her, then issue a clean hands certificate, each time she goes to have a movement or void her bladder or blow her nose or check her makeup or switch out her tampon.

Why don't we do that?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:26 pm Thanks, HQ. Yours is a lengthy but informative post.
👍
commonsense
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by commonsense »

Regarding the cited surveys:

It’s difficult to believe that Sharyl Attkisson’s respondents comprise a random sample, simply because her blog is clearly anti-vaccine and her subscribers and other viewers bear a strong probability of being the same.

The AMA’s press release doesn’t give details about their finding of 96%.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:40 pm Regarding the cited surveys:

It’s difficult to believe that Sharyl Attkisson’s respondents comprise a random sample, simply because her blog is clearly anti-vaccine and her subscribers and other viewers bear a strong probability of being the same.

The AMA’s press release doesn’t give details about their finding of 96%.
It wasn't her survey. She cites two different surveys. Access the link for her piece and see for yourself.
commonsense
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:41 pm I do not think we'd have a problem with sacking a waitress who refused to wash their hands after taking as a shit at work.

How will you know the waitress didn't wash her hands?

You'll only know if customers become ill, an investigation is mounted, and the waitress is shown, by way of her poor hygiene, to be the cause of the illness.

No one stands at the door of the restroom to test her, then issue a clean hands certificate, each time she goes to have a movement or void her bladder or blow her nose or check her makeup or switch out her tampon.

Why don't we do that?
All it takes is one customer who witnesses the waitress leaving the women’s restroom without washing her hands, one customer who assumes the waitress defecated and who reports the waitress to a manager.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:41 pm I do not think we'd have a problem with sacking a waitress who refused to wash their hands after taking as a shit at work.

How will you know the waitress didn't wash her hands?

You'll only know if customers become ill, an investigation is mounted, and the waitress is shown, by way of her poor hygiene, to be the cause of the illness.

No one stands at the door of the restroom to test her, then issue a clean hands certificate, each time she goes to have a movement or void her bladder or blow her nose or check her makeup or switch out her tampon.

Why don't we do that?
All it takes is one customer who witnesses the waitress leaving the women’s restroom without washing her hands, one customer who assumes the waitress defecated and who reports the waitress to a manager.
❓
commonsense
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:46 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:40 pm Regarding the cited surveys:

It’s difficult to believe that Sharyl Attkisson’s respondents comprise a random sample, simply because her blog is clearly anti-vaccine and her subscribers and other viewers bear a strong probability of being the same.

The AMA’s press release doesn’t give details about their finding of 96%.
It wasn't her survey. She cites two different surveys. Access the link for her piece and see for yourself.
Mea culpa
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Healthcare Workers should be Fired

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:57 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:46 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:40 pm Regarding the cited surveys:

It’s difficult to believe that Sharyl Attkisson’s respondents comprise a random sample, simply because her blog is clearly anti-vaccine and her subscribers and other viewers bear a strong probability of being the same.

The AMA’s press release doesn’t give details about their finding of 96%.
It wasn't her survey. She cites two different surveys. Access the link for her piece and see for yourself.
Mea culpa
I'm a little confused as to why you thought the survey(s) were hers. Even in my cut & paste of her piece (sans embedded links) she states right up-front where she's gettin' her information.
Post Reply