Healthcare Workers should be Fired

[Lacewing]

And how can I answer Do I care about things that don't affect me? ...and... Do I care for people outside of me and mine? without referencin' my words in-forum? Any anecdote I relay from my life is unconfirmable, by me, for you. I can only use what is readily available to anyone as evidence: my words, here. Like my contributions in this thread, for example.

How are your past words more proof than your ability to provide words now? Why can't you simply explain further by providing examples of how/when you care? (I already said I wasn't looking for proof... just an explanation beyond what you've previously said.)

For example... for me, personally... I care about people whether or not we share the same perspectives (political, religious, social, philosophical, etc.), and whether or not I even know them. When people suddenly need help, I typically help them if I can... even if it's inconvenient or a bit costly for me. At the same time, I don't hate nor take care of people who lean on everyone else to take care of them. I simply don't get swept up in their routine or story. Nor do I bow down to anyone who presents themselves as an authority or superior in any way. I'm more inclined to be rebellious and question claims or rules or position, but I also know how to play a game if it's to my advantage to do so.

I think most people are doing the best they know how. Being brilliant or idiotic or bound up in ego is not isolated to any walk of life. In my opinion, it's more truthful not to jump on bandwagons, because there have shown to be lots of idiots on bandwagons. Such people have limited/dependent views (which easily become distorted or rabid) and they are barreling through everything in their path -- rather than wisely remaining independent and discriminating in challenging THOSE ideas and sources TOO, and avoiding validating the ideas and themselves via each other.

[henry quirk]

That doesn't make sense, Henry. How are your past words more proof than your ability to provide words now? Why can't you (as I've asked 3 times now) simply explain further now by providing examples of how/when you care?

As I think on it: you're right. My words here, as proof I care about things that don't affect me, and, that I care for people outside of me and mine, are valueless. Pointing to things I've posted as evidence of my other-interest means as little as my posting anecdotes from my life. For example: I stop every time I see someone stranded at the roadside, hood of their car up. Honestly, I do. But it's just words. I can't prove I do this.

Seems, Lace, you'll have to believe or disbelieve I care about things that don't affect me, and, that I care for people outside of me and mine based solely on what your gut tells you, cuz there's no legit way (*outside of you physically accompanyin' me thru my days as an observer) to prove I'm not a selfish bastid.

To illustrate: you wrote...

I care about people whether or not we share the same perspectives (political, religious, social, philosophical, etc.), and whether or not I even know them. When people suddenly need help, I typically help them if I can... even if it's inconvenient or a bit costly for me.

...how would you prove to any reader these things are true?




*that, by the way, was not a (veiled) invitation

[Lacewing]

For example: I stop every time I see someone stranded at the roadside, hood of their car up. Honestly, I do. But it's just words. I can't prove I do this.

Seems, Lace, you'll have to believe or disbelieve I care about things that don't affect me, and, that I care for people outside of me and mine based solely on what your gut tells you...

Thank you. It's simply a matter of hearing you say it like that to contrast with the other things you say that continually focus on yourself and what's yours. I appreciate you showing some cooperation in explaining further.

It's natural to form an image of people based on what they may focus on, here on the forum -- and then to respond to that as if it's a two-dimensional cartoon figure. People may also project their own limitation or bias (or projections) onto others if they are unable to understand what another person is actually talking about.

I think it's valuable to challenge our stereotypes about others. You are surely more than I imagine... and I am surely more than you imagine. I may be a peace-loving, progressive-thinking, non-theist who likes to have fun , but I don't put up with shit, and I have standards in all sorts of areas of life, and I have a spiritual nature, and I'm responsible and grounded. I do not see a black and white world by which everything can be so precisely judged, in the way that some people express on this forum. Some of us are here to spout off things we think we know, and some of us are here to point out when people claim things that don't really make sense. An odd way of doing philosophy and testing truths/lies/beliefs, perhaps, but fun theatrical stuff.

[henry quirk]

I appreciate you showing some cooperation in explaining further.

[henry quirk]

Back on track...

Governments are mandating beer virus vaccinations for their citizens, and constructing systems wherein citizens are obligated to carry a pass to prove they've been vaccinated. Some governments have made it illegal to use a false pass.

Some governments, aware of the sticky wicket gov mandates can be, have passed the buck by giving permission to venders to deny access to customers who can't provide a valid pass.

Many employers, feelin' pressure from gov, have instituted mandatory vaccination programs

I believe (for reasons laid out up-thread) such gov mandates and gov-sanctioned vender/employer mandates are a significant, immoral, overreach.

Others disagree, believin' individual sovereignty is trumped by the needs of society or nation.

I counter that indvidual sovereignty (what I call ownness) is absolute and cannot be voided, but only violated.

Your turn.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Others disagree, believin' individual sovereignty is trumped by the needs of society or nation.

The two are not mutually exclusive and some people (even many Americans) have the intelligence to understand this. What is a 'nation' except a whole lot of 'individuals' all trying to live together?
Altruism is an illusion anyway. I got the the vaccine because I decided it was better for ME and those close to ME, to get it. I could have just as easily not got it. It's not as if I hang around bars any more Being constantly told by the govt. to 'protect the vulnerable' and that we are 'a team' only made me instinctively dig my heels in. Then again, if it was a virus that only attacked children and young people then I would have it, even if I didn't have anyone close to me in that group. That would be my choice. It certainly wouldn't be because someone I don't know has told me I 'should'.
I doubt if anyone has had the vaccine to protect ancients in aged care facilites that they don't know from Adam and are never going to meet or even be aware of the existence of.
The old saying 'cutting off one's nose to spite the face' springs to mind...


ps I 'unaltruistically' used the very old essentially as guinea pigs, since they were first up to get the jab-- just to make sure nothing horrible happened to them before I got it. Perhaps that was the plan in the first place?

[commonsense]

Altruism is an illusion anyway. I got the the vaccine because I decided it was better for ME and those close to ME, to get it. I could have just as easily not got it. It's not as if I hang around bars any more Being constantly told by the govt. to 'protect the vulnerable' and that we are 'a team' only made me instinctively dig my heels in. Then again, if it was a virus that only attacked children and young people then I would have it, even if I didn't have anyone close to me in that group. That would be my choice. It certainly wouldn't be because someone I don't know has told me I 'should'.

Just because you are not an altruist does not mean that altruism is a myth.

[commonsense]

I doubt if anyone has had the vaccine to protect ancients in aged care facilites that they don't know from Adam and are never going to meet or even be aware of the existence of.
The old saying 'cutting off one's nose to spite the face' springs to mind...

Your doubt can be confirmed as correct. In a local seniors’ facility, 6 of the 12 ancients died within a period of 5 days. Since none of the 12 had ever left the assisted living facility, nor had they been allowed to have visitors during the pandemic, staff brought Covid-19 into the building, killing the 6 residents.

[Lacewing]

...my choice. It certainly wouldn't be because someone I don't know has told me I 'should'.

Same here.

Nobody I know initially wanted the vaccine. But due to their various associations with certain populations and risk factors, as well as the 'outbreak' finally hitting our community, we all gradually began taking that step. My partner and I were the last to get it among our friends. He was absolutely opposed. But it got to the point that we couldn't gather with our friends, for fear of putting them/us at risk... and we knew his employer would require it at some point, since he works with the public. I mentally framed it like this: This is the world we live in -- and like it or not (there are a lot of things we have to tolerate in our societies that we don't like) -- this is part of the arrangement for continuing to live life as reasonably as possible. Bitterly fighting it doesn't change anything. Better to focus on all the other stuff we can appreciate and do the way we want to.

There are countless reasons/people/perspectives why it is unfolding the way it is. There is NO brilliant Dr. Evil at the helm. The chaos from all directions shows this. This is who we humans are... and this is what nature does... and we are not the first to be threatened with mass extinction due to nature and our own terrible short-sightedness.

We might have a better chance of survival if we stop acting like big raging babies that feed on the gushing flow of conspiracy theories.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Altruism is an illusion anyway. I got the the vaccine because I decided it was better for ME and those close to ME, to get it. I could have just as easily not got it. It's not as if I hang around bars any more Being constantly told by the govt. to 'protect the vulnerable' and that we are 'a team' only made me instinctively dig my heels in. Then again, if it was a virus that only attacked children and young people then I would have it, even if I didn't have anyone close to me in that group. That would be my choice. It certainly wouldn't be because someone I don't know has told me I 'should'.

Just because you are not an altruist does not mean that altruism is a myth.

It's a 'myth' in the sense that something is ever done for entirely unselfish reasons. We protect our loved ones because of the knowledge that anything happening to them would make our life intolerably miserable. I would get a vaccine to protect the young in general because their deaths always make me sad--whether I knew them personally or not. It's quite 'telling' that when this first started and it was thought that the virus was only dangerous to the elderly, not one elderly person spoke out and said 'please don't lock down the country on 'my' behalf'. I'm happy to only isolate myself'. Of course, the virus has moved on, and it's a far more varied chunk of the population that is being affected.

[henry quirk]

I know common is all for mandated jabs, but I might have missed, or seem to have missed, or mebbe I just forgot, your takes, Lace, veg.

Do either of you support gov/employer mandates?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I know common is all for mandated jabs, but I might have missed, or seem to have missed, or mebbe I just forgot, your takes, Lace, veg.

Do either of you support gov/employer mandates?

At this time I'm neutral, because surely if the vaccine works then the unvaccinated are no danger to anyone but themselves?

[Lacewing]

I know common is all for mandated jabs, but I might have missed, or seem to have missed, or mebbe I just forgot, your takes, Lace, veg.

Do either of you support gov/employer mandates?

No, I don't support it... but I realize that it's a very tricky situation when people are working around people who may need extra protection. I also don't support drug testing (even though I don't do drugs)... and I don't support seatbelts or airbags that blow up in your face... and I don't support much of what the American government does... and I'm especially pissed off at the IRS today... so don't get me started!

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Then you have to consider the fact that IC units are full of the unvaccinated taking up spaces that could be used by people with other ailments. So yes, it does affect others.

[Belinda]

I know common is all for mandated jabs, but I might have missed, or seem to have missed, or mebbe I just forgot, your takes, Lace, veg.

Do either of you support gov/employer mandates?

At this time I'm neutral, because surely if the vaccine works then the unvaccinated are no danger to anyone but themselves?

Unvaccinated are a danger to others .

Vaccinated or not, people may still get covid . Vaccination makes the disease very much less severe, so the health services benefit, and people with milder covid can get back to independent living and their work a lot sooner.