How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: B

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm I ask a simple question: should a doc be obligated or compelled to assist in suicide?

ain't got a straight answer yet
Do you even bother to read responses to your 'questions'? Or is comprehension the problem?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:04 pm swear to do no harm... unless you're harming a fetus or ending a "less than productive" or "less than pleasurable" human life...

just think of all the money saved by the government

-Imp
Good. There are far too many humans anyway. I'm sure there's a lot more room in heaven than on earth anyway :lol:
commonsense
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Re: B

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:52 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:42 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:35 pm Doctor assisted dying would please most people.

the hell you say!
No one is forcing you to do it. Funny how your 'every man is an island free to do as he pleases' stance only applies when it suits you.
not about me...I'm not a doc

will docs be forced to assist?
I doubt that anyone, doctor or not, will be forced to commit homicide outside of military operations and the like.
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Re: B

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:57 pm
my view: if you wanna off yourself, do it yourself

no need in muddyin' someone else's soul with it
Physician assisted suicide comes into play when you want to off yourself due to medical reasons and you are physically unable to get out of bed to drown yourself, shoot yourself, poison yourself, etc.

Physicians who perform physician assisted suicide probably don’t compromise their conscience somehow.
commonsense
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by commonsense »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:04 pm swear to do no harm... unless you're harming a fetus or ending a "less than productive" or "less than pleasurable" human life...

just think of all the money saved by the government

-Imp
Physicians are expected to do no harm to their patients. Doctors who feel that the fetus is not their patient are more likely to perform elective abortions.

Those patients who request physician assisted euthanasia are usually concerned about pain and basic quality of life rather than about productivity and pleasure.
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:32 am

It might be genetic. There is little we can do about that. It seems to be more to do with general health.
Low numbers from China, Vietnam, India, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand might relfect an almost complete absence of obesity, and a tendancy to eat a more nutritious diet.

But it looks like the death rates are going to be determined, by far, by type of government.

I think we can assume that genetic factors are similar for New Zealand, Australia and Finland, compared to Spain, UK, and US. But the death rates seem to be showing that an effective govenment willing to do the right thing gets results.
Australia, with very low death rates has not shied away from taking the action needed to slow down the infection. The US is sleepwalking into the highest rates on the planet. As each state falls they are making record rates of death. New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts are higher than San Marino the most badly affected state on earth. Connecticut is catching up.
ya, to contain the virus America should have shut down - not for 6 weeks as we did - but for 6 months. We did not, and now will have to go through another shutdown eventually - and a longer one. and the economic cost will be 4 times what it would have been had we done it right the first time last March - shutdown for 6 months. instead we will now be stuck with parital shutdowns via the many states - for the next 2 years!, unlike we have a vacine.

and ya Trump's lack of leadership is to blaime - and why his pole numbers are in the toilet today.
Why lock down at all? When you look at the figures it really does work out to be a very similar death rate to the flu--and the flu is much worse because it kills children. Covid kills mainly old people in rest homes who are at death's door anyway. Why are we shutting down the whole planet to save some old people who could die from a cold? It makes no sense.
i understand your point, but we really do not understand this thing well enough yet. Its the third gen of Sars1, Mers and now Sars2 - from just those 3 gens we see a the 2 prior + airborn, so until we understand what we are fighting (maybe the next mutation will be lethal to kids? - who knows - no one knows) - we need to lock down and get a vaccine.

BTW it looks like Rabies, i got bit by a cat, so got 12 shots in my face 6 yrs ago - Rabies vac only works for 2 yrs, this corona thing looks like Rabies/Flu and any vaccine will be good for only a yr or 2, and we will have to re-up indefinately, now that Corona is in the wild and here to stay.
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by commonsense »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:25 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:32 am

It might be genetic. There is little we can do about that. It seems to be more to do with general health.
Low numbers from China, Vietnam, India, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand might relfect an almost complete absence of obesity, and a tendancy to eat a more nutritious diet.

But it looks like the death rates are going to be determined, by far, by type of government.

I think we can assume that genetic factors are similar for New Zealand, Australia and Finland, compared to Spain, UK, and US. But the death rates seem to be showing that an effective govenment willing to do the right thing gets results.
Australia, with very low death rates has not shied away from taking the action needed to slow down the infection. The US is sleepwalking into the highest rates on the planet. As each state falls they are making record rates of death. New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts are higher than San Marino the most badly affected state on earth. Connecticut is catching up.
ya, to contain the virus America should have shut down - not for 6 weeks as we did - but for 6 months. We did not, and now will have to go through another shutdown eventually - and a longer one. and the economic cost will be 4 times what it would have been had we done it right the first time last March - shutdown for 6 months. instead we will now be stuck with parital shutdowns via the many states - for the next 2 years!, unlike we have a vacine.

and ya Trump's lack of leadership is to blaime - and why his pole numbers are in the toilet today.
Why lock down at all? When you look at the figures it really does work out to be a very similar death rate to the flu--and the flu is much worse because it kills children. Covid kills mainly old people in rest homes who are at death's door anyway. Why are we shutting down the whole planet to save some old people who could die from a cold? It makes no sense.
We don’t lock down for Influenza but we can be vaccinated against it. So that’s something that can be done to protect the world.

But as we have no vaccine for the Coronavirus, what else can be done? Really, what else do you suggest?
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:25 pm

ya, to contain the virus America should have shut down - not for 6 weeks as we did - but for 6 months. We did not, and now will have to go through another shutdown eventually - and a longer one. and the economic cost will be 4 times what it would have been had we done it right the first time last March - shutdown for 6 months. instead we will now be stuck with parital shutdowns via the many states - for the next 2 years!, unlike we have a vacine.

and ya Trump's lack of leadership is to blaime - and why his pole numbers are in the toilet today.
Why lock down at all? When you look at the figures it really does work out to be a very similar death rate to the flu--and the flu is much worse because it kills children. Covid kills mainly old people in rest homes who are at death's door anyway. Why are we shutting down the whole planet to save some old people who could die from a cold? It makes no sense.
We don’t lock down for Influenza but we can be vaccinated against it. So that’s something that can be done to protect the world.

But as we have no vaccine for the Coronavirus, what else can be done? Really, what else do you suggest?
The idea that Covid is no worse than flu is just an old bit of fake news only propagated by people too stupid to have been paying attention over the last few months. People like Boris, and Bolsanaro might have believed it in March, but that was when deaths were in their 100s.
44000 have died in the UK since then. 160k reported deaths in the US and that is WITH lockdown. The virus has hardly got started in the US with places like New York, New Jersey recording higher rates than anywhere on earth.
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm

Why lock down at all? When you look at the figures it really does work out to be a very similar death rate to the flu--and the flu is much worse because it kills children. Covid kills mainly old people in rest homes who are at death's door anyway. Why are we shutting down the whole planet to save some old people who could die from a cold? It makes no sense.
We don’t lock down for Influenza but we can be vaccinated against it. So that’s something that can be done to protect the world.

But as we have no vaccine for the Coronavirus, what else can be done? Really, what else do you suggest?
The idea that Covid is no worse than flu is just an old bit of fake news only propagated by people too stupid to have been paying attention over the last few months. People like Boris, and Bolsanaro might have believed it in March, but that was when deaths were in their 100s.
44000 have died in the UK since then. 160k reported deaths in the US and that is WITH lockdown. The virus has hardly got started in the US with places like New York, New Jersey recording higher rates than anywhere on earth.
I never said it was 'just a flu'.
If it's so deadly to everyone, then why are we continually being told that we are 'protecting our elderly' (including the older 'middle aged' (semi-elderly) who have fucked up their own immune systems)? As if it isn't perfectly normal for the very old to die :lol: The POINT I was making is that the very old can just as easily die of a cold or flu. I don't mind lockdowns myself, but my opinion doesn't matter--it's only facts I'm interested in.

Can't stay in lockdown forever. Nature is going to cull people one way or another so you had better start eating up your greens :|
commonsense
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by commonsense »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:05 pm

We don’t lock down for Influenza but we can be vaccinated against it. So that’s something that can be done to protect the world.

But as we have no vaccine for the Coronavirus, what else can be done? Really, what else do you suggest?
The idea that Covid is no worse than flu is just an old bit of fake news only propagated by people too stupid to have been paying attention over the last few months. People like Boris, and Bolsanaro might have believed it in March, but that was when deaths were in their 100s.
44000 have died in the UK since then. 160k reported deaths in the US and that is WITH lockdown. The virus has hardly got started in the US with places like New York, New Jersey recording higher rates than anywhere on earth.
I never said it was 'just a flu'.
If it's so deadly to everyone, then why are we continually being told that we are 'protecting our elderly' (including the older 'middle aged' (semi-elderly) who have fucked up their own immune systems)? As if it isn't perfectly normal for the very old to die :lol: The POINT I was making is that the very old can just as easily die of a cold or flu. I don't mind lockdowns myself, but my opinion doesn't matter--it's only facts I'm interested in.

Can't stay in lockdown forever. Nature is going to cull people one way or another so you had better start eating up your greens :|
Yes, maybe it boils down to nature’s culling of (old) people v. humans’ caring for (old) people. If this is to be a homeostatic situation there must be a balance of the two.
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:41 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
The idea that Covid is no worse than flu is just an old bit of fake news only propagated by people too stupid to have been paying attention over the last few months. People like Boris, and Bolsanaro might have believed it in March, but that was when deaths were in their 100s.
44000 have died in the UK since then. 160k reported deaths in the US and that is WITH lockdown. The virus has hardly got started in the US with places like New York, New Jersey recording higher rates than anywhere on earth.
I never said it was 'just a flu'.
If it's so deadly to everyone, then why are we continually being told that we are 'protecting our elderly' (including the older 'middle aged' (semi-elderly) who have fucked up their own immune systems)? As if it isn't perfectly normal for the very old to die :lol: The POINT I was making is that the very old can just as easily die of a cold or flu. I don't mind lockdowns myself, but my opinion doesn't matter--it's only facts I'm interested in.

Can't stay in lockdown forever. Nature is going to cull people one way or another so you had better start eating up your greens :|
Yes, maybe it boils down to nature’s culling of (old) people v. humans’ caring for (old) people. If this is to be a homeostatic situation there must be a balance of the two.
It's nothing of the sort. If humans really 'cared' for old people then they wouldn't be in those awful facilities. If they really 'cared' then people would be screened for any kind of virus or illness before being allowed to enter an aged care home.
Your comments are typical of the emotive, emotionally-blackmailing crap that people come out with every time someone suggests not having lockdowns. 'WAAAH, granny-killer, you're trying to kill my great granny, shame on you wah wah..'

Sweden has got its death rate down to practically nothing without a lockdown.


sweden.png
sweden.png (24.65 KiB) Viewed 338 times
commonsense
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by commonsense »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:58 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:41 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 pm

I never said it was 'just a flu'.
If it's so deadly to everyone, then why are we continually being told that we are 'protecting our elderly' (including the older 'middle aged' (semi-elderly) who have fucked up their own immune systems)? As if it isn't perfectly normal for the very old to die :lol: The POINT I was making is that the very old can just as easily die of a cold or flu. I don't mind lockdowns myself, but my opinion doesn't matter--it's only facts I'm interested in.

Can't stay in lockdown forever. Nature is going to cull people one way or another so you had better start eating up your greens :|
Yes, maybe it boils down to nature’s culling of (old) people v. humans’ caring for (old) people. If this is to be a homeostatic situation there must be a balance of the two.
It's nothing of the sort. If humans really 'cared' for old people then they wouldn't be in those awful facilities. If they really 'cared' then people would be screened for any kind of virus or illness before being allowed to enter an aged care home.
Your comments are typical of the emotive, emotionally-blackmailing crap that people come out with every time someone suggests not having lockdowns. 'WAAAH, granny-killer, you're trying to kill my great granny, shame on you wah wah..'

Sweden has got its death rate down to practically nothing without a lockdown.



sweden.png
I see your point.

BTW, Socially Swedes are always very distant. :wink:
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Re: B

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:57 pm
my view: if you wanna off yourself, do it yourself

no need in muddyin' someone else's soul with it
Physician assisted suicide comes into play when you want to off yourself due to medical reasons and you are *physically unable to get out of bed to drown yourself, shoot yourself, poison yourself, etc.

Physicians who perform physician assisted suicide probably don’t compromise their conscience somehow.
as I understand it: some medical professionals already assist such folks already, along with stalwart family members and friends

they do so quietly, after much deliberation, and without worryin' much about governmental imprimatur

also: there does not seem to me to be a suicide crisis at play with scores of folks wantin' to off themselves but bein' unable to

so: if there's no suicide crisis and assisted suicide occurs already as don't ask, don't tell, then why involve government any more than it is?

the only reason I can see: so that those in power can poke their fingers into another aspect of a man's life (and where those who regulate are invited, they gladly enter, regulate, tax, and direct)

before you know it: doctors are obligated to euthanize, but not accordin' to conscience or the will the of the patient, but at the direction of the state, based on criteria established by the state, criteria that never conforms to an individual's conscience or will

fuck that noise









*illustratin' a man always has an option: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/ ... .2011.0833
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Re: How to deal with a friend who thinks COVID 19 is a hoax

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:05 pm

We don’t lock down for Influenza but we can be vaccinated against it. So that’s something that can be done to protect the world.

But as we have no vaccine for the Coronavirus, what else can be done? Really, what else do you suggest?
The idea that Covid is no worse than flu is just an old bit of fake news only propagated by people too stupid to have been paying attention over the last few months. People like Boris, and Bolsanaro might have believed it in March, but that was when deaths were in their 100s.
44000 have died in the UK since then. 160k reported deaths in the US and that is WITH lockdown. The virus has hardly got started in the US with places like New York, New Jersey recording higher rates than anywhere on earth.
I never said it was 'just a flu'.
If it's so deadly to everyone, then why are we continually being told that we are 'protecting our elderly' (including the older 'middle aged' (semi-elderly) who have fucked up their own immune systems)? As if it isn't perfectly normal for the very old to die :lol: The POINT I was making is that the very old can just as easily die of a cold or flu. I don't mind lockdowns myself, but my opinion doesn't matter--it's only facts I'm interested in.

Can't stay in lockdown forever. Nature is going to cull people one way or another so you had better start eating up your greens :|
There are two reasons for shielding the very old and other vulnerable sorts of people. One reason is civilisation is currently founded upon values that everyone has equal rights, personifications of Justice show her blindfolded.

The other reason is practical. Vulnerable persons are vulnerable for several reasons including poverty, compromised immune systems, and diseases of old age. Virus is opportunistic. The practicality of shielding these groups is to protect health and care services against being overwhelmed. There was never any intention of keeping old people alive for ever.
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Re: B

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:57 pm
my view: if you wanna off yourself, do it yourself

no need in muddyin' someone else's soul with it
Physician assisted suicide comes into play when you want to off yourself due to medical reasons and you are *physically unable to get out of bed to drown yourself, shoot yourself, poison yourself, etc.

Physicians who perform physician assisted suicide probably don’t compromise their conscience somehow.
as I understand it: some medical professionals already assist such folks already, along with stalwart family members and friends

they do so quietly, after much deliberation, and without worryin' much about governmental imprimatur

also: there does not seem to me to be a suicide crisis at play with scores of folks wantin' to off themselves but bein' unable to

so: if there's no suicide crisis and assisted suicide occurs already as don't ask, don't tell, then why involve government any more than it is?

the only reason I can see: so that those in power can poke their fingers into another aspect of a man's life (and where those who regulate are invited, they gladly enter, regulate, tax, and direct)

before you know it: doctors are obligated to euthanize, but not accordin' to conscience or the will the of the patient, but at the direction of the state, based on criteria established by the state, criteria that never conforms to an individual's conscience or will

fuck that noise
You are correct some doctors already do it.Some are found out and punished when it's against the law. Two people wit sufficient credibility and authority have told me this face to face . One was a retired senior geriatrician, the other was an old lady who had worked as a VAD during the Great War.

As I explained earlier voluntary help from doctors does not work any more, as nowadays the public trend and demand is for personal autonomy visavis medical services. Doctors are no longer regarded as demigods.
(The old lady who had been a VAD nurse worked in a famous hospital in rural Scotland early last century. She was an educated lady with intact memory who could report accurately. She had admitted a very ill tramp to the ward. The consultant came to examine the man. The ward sister thoroughly screened off the bed and told the young VAD nurse to keep out. When the doctor and the ward sister reappeared the patient was dead. My friend said this was common practice as there was nothing at all that could be done to help such people.

Actually the old tramp was fortunate in being so obscure a person as few if any would notice he had died.)








*illustratin' a man always has an option: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/ ... .2011.0833
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