Sick until proven healthy

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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Gloominary
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Gloominary » Thu May 14, 2020 6:16 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:12 pm
Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:02 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 4:30 am


small & under heel
I agree with libertarians about lots of things, but not everything, I don't subscribe to any single ideology.
me: I'm an awful natural rights libertarian (selfish anarchist by inclination; wrong-headed minarchist by way of reason).

I'm as close-minded and ideological as a body can be (which is to say: I have a perspective and I'm stickin' to it).
I see, I'd say populist comes closest to describing me, and populism is pretty vague.

Gary Childress
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Re: "When 3000 died in a skyscraper in NY people cared a great deal."

Post by Gary Childress » Thu May 14, 2020 6:17 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:56 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:00 pm
Terrible events stir us, especially when reported on 24/7.

A little over 700 people have been shot dead in Chicago since the beginning of this year. Aside from the families and friends of the dead, who else cares? No one. Why? Cuz them shootin' deaths aren't of particular interest to reporters and the organizations they work for.


every single murder is an even smaller part of the number of deaths. But we care about those.

Not really. We read the paper, cluck disapprovingly at the crime section, and go about our business. We don't insist our towns, cities, nations, lockdown. We don't.
Perhaps we don't care because we don't think it can happen to us. But when something affects us, then we think differently.
The same could be said of bankruptcy, unemployment, domestic violence and suicide.
Yes. Very much so.

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henry quirk
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-1-

Post by henry quirk » Thu May 14, 2020 6:35 pm

Try this (I think it addresses your complaints)...

From 1-1-20 to today: 298,680 people have *officially died from beer virus.

From 1-1-20 to today: 287,066 people have **officially died from cardiovascular disease.

Keep in mind: beer virus may have, probably has, peaked while cardiovascular disease hasn't, doesn't, won't, peak.

Come year's end: which will have killed more? Which will keep killing? Which one currently has a third or more or the global population locked down?

I can make a whole whack of one-to-one comparisons: various death-dealin' diseases and causes that match or exceed beer virus, but only beer virus has us house-arrested.

As I say: boondoggled.









*inflated, as I've noted in numerous places in this sub-forum
**undercounted: especially in the 3rd world.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Arising_uk » Thu May 14, 2020 6:36 pm

henry quirk wrote: You know this how?
Because you have SWAT squads. :roll:
You know this how?
Which bit of the logic didn't you get?
Which I disagree with. ...
So are you saying you are taught that the reason why your revolution was successful was because the French Navy tied up the British one and they funded your revolution with cash, arms and military advisors and then pretty much went bankrupt after you didn't follow through on your trading promises(a lesson for the Brexiteers methinks). That the Spanish and Dutch also paid for it.
Another opinion, then. ....
Give me examples of unregulated militias doing anything else?
Yep, a targeted response. Too bad we can't have that now (we could, we should, but -- at the moment -- we don't). ...
So now you're up for quarantining 16% of your population, make your mind-up.
Which figures? Which comparisons?
Pretty much all of them. Although I find it ironic that one of them says the mortality rate is 0.2% just like flu as you posted your flu figures a while back at they had a 10% death rate and if you take the admittedly bad formula of amount of cases and death rates then the states is currently running at about 5.9%.
A democracy? Hell no, and thank Crom! 'Murica is a constitutional republic: not the minarchy I crave but a damned sight better than a stinkin' democracy (mob rule in Sunday-go-to-meetin' clothes). ...
Except that reasonable democracies pay attention to things like the 'tyranny of the majority' and have laws about it for minorities. How will you be assigning the roles of police, military and courts and the government officials to oversee them?
Ballot box, jury box, cartridge box.
But your minarchy should have no need for you to have bullets?

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henry quirk
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by henry quirk » Thu May 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Because you have SWAT squads.

So you suppose, because there is SWAT, non-SWAT are inadequately trained.

A rather large leap.


Which bit of the logic didn't you get?

Not questioning your logic; am questioning your sources.


So are you saying you are taught...

In a large country, education is uneven; in mine, it's also poor. What I was taught, what I learned: two different things.


Give me examples of unregulated militias doing anything else?

I don't know of any unregulated militias (other than the whole of the 'Murican people). why don't you give me some examples of them unregulated devils.


So now you're up for quarantining 16% of your population

Encouragin' the old and fragile to hunker down (and lendin' an assist so they can) is not the same as arrestin' 'em if they don't.


Pretty much all of them. Although I find it ironic that one of them says the mortality rate is 0.2% just like flu as you posted your flu figures a while back at they had a 10% death rate and if you take the admittedly bad formula of amount of cases and death rates then the states is currently running at about 5.9%.

Yeah, you need to review what I've posted in this sub-forum. I never touted a 10% death rate. And: how should we gauge beer virus? What should our measure(s) be about how serious beer virus actually is?


reasonable democracies pay attention to things like the 'tyranny of the majority' and have laws about it for minorities.

Sounds great! Name 'em (bet they're not democracies).


How will you be assigning the roles of police, military and courts and the government officials to oversee them?

Constables, soldiers, judges: hire 'em. Oversight: that's citizenry (militia).


But your minarchy should have no need for you to have bullets?

Minarchy works precisely cuz of guns: lose the guns, lose the minarchy.
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu May 14, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gary Childress
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Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Gary Childress » Thu May 14, 2020 7:18 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 pm
I said most people that died, died with Covid, not of it, which's true, they were 70+ with multiple severe diseases,
It sounds like semantics to me. If COVID 19 breaks down the body's ability to deal with other diseases or even causes certain other diseases, then I'd say they died due to COVID 19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKvIYwqQkE

Gloominary
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Gloominary » Thu May 14, 2020 7:57 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:18 pm
Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 pm
I said most people that died, died with Covid, not of it, which's true, they were 70+ with multiple severe diseases,
Semantics. If COVID 19 breaks down the body's ability to deal with other diseases or even causes certain other diseases, then I'd say they died due to COVID 19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKvIYwqQkE
No just because you have Covid when you died, doesn't mean it was the or a (major or minor) factor in your death.
Most of these people were 70+ and had cancer, diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, etcetera.
If a young person contracts Covid it's highly unlikely they'll die, but if a young person develops cancer, diabetes or heart disease, it's not unlikely they'll die of it.
If someone has multiple chronic conditions like cancer, diabetes and heart disease, clearly they're the main factor in their death, not Covid.
At the end of your life cycle, as your body breaks down, you're extremely susceptible to every illness, but it doesn't mean any or all of them killed you, old age killed you.
There is no financial incentive, administrative or sociopolitical pressure to mark the common cold or seasonal flu as the cause of death as a person enters the final stage of life.

Gary Childress
Posts: 1903
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Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Gary Childress » Thu May 14, 2020 8:05 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:18 pm
Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 pm
I said most people that died, died with Covid, not of it, which's true, they were 70+ with multiple severe diseases,
Semantics. If COVID 19 breaks down the body's ability to deal with other diseases or even causes certain other diseases, then I'd say they died due to COVID 19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKvIYwqQkE
No just because you have Covid when you died, doesn't mean it was the or a (major or minor) factor in your death.
Most of these people were 70+ and had cancer, diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, etcetera.
If a young person contracts Covid it's highly unlikely they'll die, but if a young person develops cancer, diabetes or heart disease, it's not unlikely they'll die of it.
If someone has multiple chronic conditions like cancer, diabetes and heart disease, clearly they're the main factor in their death, not Covid.
At the end of your life cycle, as your body breaks down, you're extremely susceptible to every illness, but it doesn't mean any or all of them killed you, old age killed you.
There is no financial incentive, administrative or sociopolitical pressure to mark the common cold or seasonal flu as the cause of death as a person enters the final stage of life.
Perhaps. You sound like an expert on this. I'm just a layman.

commonsense
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by commonsense » Fri May 15, 2020 9:37 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:18 pm
Gloominary wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 pm
I said most people that died, died with Covid, not of it, which's true, they were 70+ with multiple severe diseases,
Semantics. If COVID 19 breaks down the body's ability to deal with other diseases or even causes certain other diseases, then I'd say they died due to COVID 19.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKvIYwqQkE
No just because you have Covid when you died, doesn't mean it was the or a (major or minor) factor in your death.
Most of these people were 70+ and had cancer, diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, etcetera.
If a young person contracts Covid it's highly unlikely they'll die, but if a young person develops cancer, diabetes or heart disease, it's not unlikely they'll die of it.
If someone has multiple chronic conditions like cancer, diabetes and heart disease, clearly they're the main factor in their death, not Covid.
At the end of your life cycle, as your body breaks down, you're extremely susceptible to every illness, but it doesn't mean any or all of them killed you, old age killed you.
There is no financial incentive, administrative or sociopolitical pressure to mark the common cold or seasonal flu as the cause of death as a person enters the final stage of life.
The thing is, if someone has cancer, heart disease and diabetes and is living, even if poorly, and then this someone has cancer, heart disease, diabetes and COVID 19 and dies, then COVID becomes a little suspicious.

commonsense
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by commonsense » Fri May 15, 2020 10:11 pm

I’m curious: have some form of quarantine guidelines been enforced in your country and, if so, how?

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Sculptor
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Sculptor » Fri May 15, 2020 11:41 pm

Gloominary wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm
The left or establishment has created a new class of people, the sick.
The last time I looked, it was the RIGHT that is in charge right now; Trump, Boris, Scott Morrison in Australia.
Last time I looked, in fact everytime I looked, even when the left had people in power the RIGHT - the establishment were still in charge.
what strange world do you inhabit?

The sick have less rights than the healthy.
They can be forcibly quarantined and treated.
And assuming everyone is sick until proven healthy, is every bit as insane as assuming everyone is guilty until proven innocent.
The potentially sick can be forcibly tested (and vaccinated).
And how they define the sick is absurd, since this virus, like most viruses, is ubiquitous and has little or nothing to do with health.
They've assumed this virus is lethal until proven nonlethal.
They refuse to examine the data proving it nonlethal.
This is not democracy, our fundamental rights and freedoms have been suspended, this is totalitarianism and we must resist.
ROTFLMFHO

Impenitent
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Impenitent » Sat May 16, 2020 4:15 am

so much for your 4th amendment

gird your loins, I see dead leftists

-Imp

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Dontaskme
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Re: Sick until proven healthy

Post by Dontaskme » Sat May 16, 2020 9:58 am

Adult birds throw their weak chicks out of the nest, and maybe healthy chicks too if there is overcrowding. Most discarded chicks become fodder for stray or domestic cats, or even for other larger birds.

Natures cruel and yet there is a kind of kindness in what seemed like an act of cruelty. Life eats itself, for it's own survival.

I think we all know where this is going... humans have no predators except themselves, so sometimes they may just decide on some drastic actions. But hang on,shock horror I hear you cry.. they wouldn't do that surely not? ... and so all I'm saying is, why not? what makes humans any different to any other snarling survival seeking beast that roams the earth, an earth that maybe has not got an endless supply of resources without the effects of those resources backfiring on the species creating them in the form of polluting and dirtying their nest, no chick wants to be born into nest full of shit.

Only the healthy survive the longest, and that is why in the human world, they want you sick. It's all pretty much natural and normal behavior.

STAY ALERT --- PROTECT YOURSELF --- AND SAVE YOUR LIFE. :lol:


Image

You've been warned!!

And that's from someone who has himself come back from the brink of this devilish viruses control.



.

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-1-
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Stupid until proven otherwise

Post by -1- » Tue May 19, 2020 12:37 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:35 pm
Try this (I think it addresses your complaints)...

From 1-1-20 to today: 298,680 people have *officially died from beer virus.

From 1-1-20 to today: 287,066 people have **officially died from cardiovascular disease.
You are being mislead by your own blind wish to prove a point which you can't.

Provided that the infection and death rates will behave according to the same probability funcion as before, please observe this:

In period A, X number of people died of COVID.
In period A, X number of poeple died of CVD.

IF you care to go back to statistics of March 20,
in period A/2, X/4 people died of COVID.
In period A/2, X/2 people died of CVD.

Hence, at the end of the year,
in peiod 3*A, 8*X people will have died of CODIV.
In period 3*A, 3*X people will have died of CVD.

Your ignorance of progression is appalling, Henry.

COVID stands for New CoronaVirus 19, and CVD stands for Cardiovascular Disease.

Grade 3, Henry. Had you stayed longer in school, the world would have one more person understanding the impact of a pandemic.
Last edited by -1- on Tue May 19, 2020 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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-1-
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Stupid until proven otherwise

Post by -1- » Tue May 19, 2020 12:43 am

commonsense wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:37 pm
The thing is, if someone has cancer, heart disease and diabetes and is living, even if poorly, and then this someone has cancer, heart disease, diabetes and COVID 19 and dies, then COVID becomes a little suspicious.
There are clear and very well defined indicators to tell who dies from what.

Henry, Gloominary, and many others on this forum, will most likely die of stupidity.

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