Lockdown Protestors

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Lockdown Protestors

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:47 am

Protests erupt against coronavirus lockdowns around the world
Demonstrations flare in a number of countries as people rebel against measures introduced to contain virus.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... und-world/
Stirrings of unrest around the world could portend turmoil as economies collapse
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/co ... story.html
I believe these protestors are ignorant and selfish and in addition the government concerned are not effective in dealing [educating and taking care of the poorer] with the necessary lockdown.

Views?

Dontaskme
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:01 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:47 am

I believe these protestors are ignorant and selfish and in addition the government concerned are not effective in dealing [educating and taking care of the poorer] with the necessary lockdown.

Views?
Humans need to follow their own self imposed laws and rules when it comes to successful herd community living, because humans thrive only on their capacity to live together via obedient and mutual cooperation within the laws and rules they set out for their own personal survival.
And so humans are totally and utterly reliant on each other, there is no such thing as the luxury of breaking free from the herd mentality of what humans self impose in the way of rules and laws and restrictions for the good of all.

Humans could not survive by themselves independantly like other species of animals do for instance, simply because humans have domesticated themselves, they are not wild creatures. Humans can think for themselves, they have got a mind that can make critical decisions and reason with, so there has to be a proper collective functioning social system put in place where everyone adheres to the same social laws and rules. Otherwise human life would be chaos, in that we'd all just be like wild animals with no social order or struture but to be just wild and free and exposed to all sorts of other dangers and worse case scenarios that would mean far more dire consequences for them.

So I agree, humans are being extremely selfish when they allow their own personal desires to take over the herd mentality, by conducting their own choices and freedoms to do exactly as they please with no regard for anyone else ...while at the same time still depending on the human social support system to save them if it all goes wrong ....so yeah, having no awareness of what they are allowing and letting themselves in for, is a very ignorant and unwise thing to do.

In my opinion, if people want to please themselves and just do what they want to do in this current coronavirus health crisis, then they should just go ahead, as long as they are willing to take full responsibilty for their actions and be prepared and aware of any subsequent fallout that might just slap them in the face. It's ok to think and believe they are free, but to think they are free while still being totally reliant on other people to rescue them is foolish. Hierarchies are natural systems set up for survival purposes, they have to be adhered to else the concept of freedom is seen for what it really is and that is an ILLUSION.



.

bergie15
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by bergie15 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:37 pm

Yes. I completely agree that these people are ignorant and selfish. It really blows my mind of some people's stupidity.

bergie15
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by bergie15 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:39 pm

Some people's stupidity blows my mind, I meant to say.

Impenitent
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Impenitent » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:41 pm

damn freedom of assembly, religion and speech

the plague must control you

obey your government master or die...

gird your loins

-Imp

commonsense
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by commonsense » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:42 pm

Well said, Veritas and DontAsk. Excellent comments.

I do not support or agree with the protesters in any way. However, I often try to understand what motivates undereducated or irrational people. I have not changed my opinions in response to stupid, unintelligent or ill-informed ideas, and I find the protesters are demonstrating just that sort of thinking.

Consequently, I offer the following about such protesters as one who wants a haircut.

People want to feel in control of their environment. People want to be in control of their environment. People do not want to be restricted by stay-at-home orders and social distancing. After all, these restrictions are placed upon the protesters rather than arising from their own volition.

To quell the uncomfortable feeling of being out of control, people take action. One such action is lighting a cigarette. People who smoke cigarettes are more afraid of the discomfort of not lighting another cigarette than they are of dying from cancer some day.

The protesters, when in control of their lives, could go to the movies or eat in a restaurant without constraints. They want that freedom again. They want to be liberated.

commonsense
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by commonsense » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:39 pm

Resuming commerce in individual States without a robust scheme for testing reminds me of the 6 degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon, however it’s more like any number of degrees of separation from a person who tests positive for the presence of COVID 19

Gary Childress
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Gary Childress » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:10 am

I heard there were protests in the city near where I live too. I believe some of the protestors here think that the government is deliberately trying to destroy the economy or something along those lines in order to create a socialist state, or so the theory seems to be. People don't seem to trust in anything these days.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:10 am
I heard there were protests in the city near where I live too. I believe some of the protestors here think that the government is deliberately trying to destroy the economy or something along those lines in order to create a socialist state, or so the theory seems to be. People don't seem to trust in anything these days.
It would be funny except that Americans are poisoning the rest of the planet with their insane bullshit.

Gary Childress
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Gary Childress » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:29 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:10 am
I heard there were protests in the city near where I live too. I believe some of the protestors here think that the government is deliberately trying to destroy the economy or something along those lines in order to create a socialist state, or so the theory seems to be. People don't seem to trust in anything these days.
It would be funny except that Americans are poisoning the rest of the planet with their insane bullshit.
Well, not all Americans think that way and it's not like the rest of the world has some sort of obligation to imitate the ones who do.

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henry quirk
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perspective (posted originally elsewhere)

Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:47 am

You should look at New York where things are going badly.

You should ask yourself why NY is such a hotspot while other places, almost all other places, are not.

Look at some Johns Hopkins numbers...

New York State Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 19,101

👉🏻New York County Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 14,887👈🏻

Nassau County Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 1,390

See the rather large difference between the two counties's totals?

Goin' through the rest of NY State's 62 counties, the numbers get better and better (lower and lower).

Is mitigation keepin' most of NY state's numbers down, or are open subways in NY City keepin' their numbers up?

🤔


Where it not for the lockdown that could be repeated across the whole of the USA

I live in Louisiana (Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 1,405).

Here's some numbers for some of the parishes I visit regularly...

👉🏻Orleans Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 344👈🏻

Jefferson Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 288

Acadia Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 7

Lafayette Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 17

Iberia Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 21

Vermilion Coronavirus death total as of 4-21-20: 1


In the first week of my state's lockdown, I was good boy. After that first week, I became progressively less good...and so did everyone else. I'm out & about everyday tryin' to make a buck, travelin' to and from all my usual locations ('cept for Orleans). There are a few shuttered businesses, and many open businesses operatin' under restriction, but mostly commerce is happenin' as it always has. In fact, seems to me all essential (and more than a few nonessential) businesses are as busy, if not more, as they were pre-Coronavirus.

Loads of people, like me, are out & about every day, most not wearin' masks or abidin' the six feet rule.

We're filthy, noncompliant buggers down here and we aren't droppin' dead from a nasty cold.

Gary Childress
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by Gary Childress » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:59 am

I live in Florida and recently talked to a woman who had moved down here from NY to retire. Apparently, she knows several people who have died from the virus including a few cousins up in NY. It seems like Covid 19 is pretty nasty stuff.

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henry quirk
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Re: Lockdown Protestors

Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:59 am
I live in Florida and recently talked to a woman who had moved down here from NY to retire. Apparently, she knows several people who have died from the virus including a few cousins up in NY. It seems like Covid 19 is pretty nasty stuff.
Here's some nastiness for you...

From Johns Hopkins...

Seasonal Flu kills as many as 600,000 folks every friggin' year all over the world. In the U.S. alone, as many as 61,000 folks die from Seasonal Flu. That's 61,000 deaths with a sophisticated, inexpensive inoculation program in place.

Maybe I missed it: did we shut down economies for any Seasonal Flu?

Fu ManFlu has killed approximately 179,000 folks worldwide and approximately 46,000 of those deaths happened in the U.S., and -- as my post above illustrates -- those deaths are extremely localized, unlike flu deaths which are more evenly dispersed. We're relyin' on a haphazard, largely honor-system, method of self-isolation to mitigate the beer virus.

We shut down economies for this.

Is Coronavirus nasty and worrisome? Absolutely.

Is it more so than Seasonal Flu? No, not really.

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henry quirk
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more nastiness, non-coronavirus edition

Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:56 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:52 am
There's nearly 8 billion people livin' right now.

Every year: approximately 58,000,000 people die throughout the world.

From 1-1-20 to 4-22-20: approximately 18,000,000 human being have died throughout the world.

Not a one from the beer virus.

*

There's over 300,000,000 livin' in the U.S. right now.

Every year: nearly 3,000,000 of those folks die.

From 1-1-20 to 4-22-20: nearly 900,000 have died in America.

Not a one from the commie cold.

*

There's roughly 19,000,000 livin' in New York State.

Every year: over 150,000 New York State citizens die.

From 1-1-20 to 4-22-20: almost 51,000 New York State citizens have died.

Not a one from Wuhan Wallop.

*

This is a Death Planet, always has been, always will be: get over it, go back to work, you bums.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: perspective (posted originally elsewhere)

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:22 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:47 am
In the first week of my state's lockdown, I was good boy. After that first week, I became progressively less good...and so did everyone else. I'm out & about everyday tryin' to make a buck, travelin' to and from all my usual locations ('cept for Orleans). There are a few shuttered businesses, and many open businesses operatin' under restriction, but mostly commerce is happenin' as it always has. In fact, seems to me all essential (and more than a few nonessential) businesses are as busy, if not more, as they were pre-Coronavirus.

Loads of people, like me, are out & about every day, most not wearin' masks or abidin' the six feet rule.

We're filthy, noncompliant buggers down here and we aren't droppin' dead from a nasty cold.
In a way, you are selfish to satisfy your impulses.

I believe you are ignorant of the how an effective strategy to get rid of the Covid19 virus in the absence of a vaccine.
Even if there is a vaccine, this particular virus which we do not have complete knowledge - could mutate and making whatever vaccine chasing after the virus, obsolete.

However note this on why the Lockdown and Social Distancing is so critical to control the spread of the virus;
  • 1. One of the critical and very dangerous feature of Covid19 is many of those who are infected as Asymptomatic, i.e. they do not show symptoms and thus those who are infected do not even know they are infected and thus are spreading the virus ignorantly and innocently.

    2. The other danger is the symptons do not show fast enough like the typical flu and by the time the victim has show Covid19 symptons, s/he could have spread to various individuals who then start clusters all over.
The purpose of the lockdown is an attempt to confine and track the virus within a Nation, State, district, neighborhood, streets and home.
In addition, its purpose is to "flatten" the curve to relieve the stress on the limited health resources.

Thus if everyone stay at home and when an infection is detected, then serious attention can be confined to the home and if the individuals are only allowed to more within say 5 miles radius, then the tracking of where he went about can be narrowed down.

Generally the Covid19 virus take 14 days for the infected person [from symptomatic or Asymptomatic victim] to show noticeable symptoms.
Thus if the Lockdown is held for 21 days, all those infected can be tracked and confined to either the home or the neighborhood.

There may be other considerations but the LOCKDOWN is to "flatten" the curve to prevent an exponential expansion like we are seeing at present.
The flattening of the curve will avoid overburdening the health sectors and the people involved.

Therefore even if you are not suffering from Covid19, you should be responsible in respecting the lockdown [the most effective at present to deal with Covid19] and appreciate the bigger picture and be responsible for others, the community and humanity.

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