Masks Seem to Help

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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jayjacobus
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by jayjacobus »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:59 pm I will say that wearing a mask does seem to help. My family and I have been wearing them pretty consistently and this past season is one of the few cold and flu seasons that none of us came down with any kind of virus or infection. Knock on wood, hope it stays that way.
People are wearing masks in my state since March 2020 yet infections rise and fall. Why is that?

Dr. Fauci says, "It's because people are not wearing masks."

LOL. He's a moron.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:59 pm I will say that wearing a mask does seem to help. My family and I have been wearing them pretty consistently and this past season is one of the few cold and flu seasons that none of us came down with any kind of virus or infection. Knock on wood, hope it stays that way.
Well, coating us all in lexan would also "help." Never travelling or being in groups would "help." Or never speaking to anyone or touching anyone again...that might well cure almost all communcable diseases.

The question, though, has to be "What is a reasonable 'help,' and what is too costly a strategy to warrant the risk-reduction involved?" Masks are certainly alienating -- depriving us humans of what we need in order to read the emotions of others, communicate with them humanly, and enjoy normal human interactions. They're certainly psychologically harmful...damaging to social relationships. And they're uncomfortable, interfere with breathing, fog up eyeglasses, and can actually become very dirty and germ-laden themselves, if not washed very promptly and very often.

At what point do we then say, "Yes, there's a risk if we don't wear them; but the risk is necessary and worth it?" We used to do that with the flu all the time -- it was always around, and evey year, some people died of complications from it. But that never caused us to behave in inhuman ways. We just accepted the risk, and even the potential loss of life, and went on. The same happens every time we drive a car: cars kill far more poeple than COVID ever did or could. But we think driving is important, so we still do it. We reduce the risks as best we can, but we don't go to the extreme of banning cars, or driving around in a cloud of bubble wrap.

When is it enough? Do we want to spend the rest of our lives masked? Is that natural? Is it sociable? Is it worth it? That's an assessment we need to make.
BeatriceMom
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by BeatriceMom »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:40 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:59 pm I will say that wearing a mask does seem to help. My family and I have been wearing them pretty consistently and this past season is one of the few cold and flu seasons that none of us came down with any kind of virus or infection. Knock on wood, hope it stays that way.
Well, coating us all in lexan would also "help." Never travelling or being in groups would "help." Or never speaking to anyone or touching anyone again...that might well cure almost all communcable diseases.

The question, though, has to be "What is a reasonable 'help,' and what is too costly a strategy to warrant the risk-reduction involved?" Masks are certainly alienating -- depriving us humans of what we need in order to read the emotions of others, communicate with them humanly, and enjoy normal human interactions. They're certainly psychologically harmful...damaging to social relationships. And they're uncomfortable, interfere with breathing, fog up eyeglasses, and can actually become very dirty and germ-laden themselves, if not washed very promptly and very often.

At what point do we then say, "Yes, there's a risk if we don't wear them; but the risk is necessary and worth it?" We used to do that with the flu all the time -- it was always around, and evey year, some people died of complications from it. But that never caused us to behave in inhuman ways. We just accepted the risk, and even the potential loss of life, and went on. The same happens every time we drive a car: cars kill far more poeple than COVID ever did or could. But we think driving is important, so we still do it. We reduce the risks as best we can, but we don't go to the extreme of banning cars, or driving around in a cloud of bubble wrap.

When is it enough? Do we want to spend the rest of our lives masked? Is that natural? Is it sociable? Is it worth it? That's an assessment we need to make.
The problem is that since the time of the Spanish Woman there have not been a large number of cases and millions of deaths from the flu, while COVID has caused enormous damage to humanity. It is not correct to compare two viruses with different contagiousness and speed of spread.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Immanuel Can »

BeatriceMom wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:07 pm ...there have not been a large number of cases and millions of deaths from the flu, while COVID has caused enormous damage to humanity. It is not correct to compare two viruses with different contagiousness and speed of spread.
COVID appears more statistically virulent, it's true.

But it's hard to know how good the statistics are, since they're artificially hugely inflated. Where I live, for example, old folks' homes were petitioning relatives to sign off on every death as COVID because then they got additional funds from the government for each case. That was an unintended consequence of the additional government funds, but it grossly inflated our numbers. Still, it seems fair to say COVID was much worse than the flu.

The virus seems now to be going away. We're approaching majority vaccination, and while a few infections continue, fatalities are almost nil, except among high-risk groups like the obese, the elderly and the lung-impaired -- all of whom we could protect without paralyzing the entire population. We're now considerably below the levels of things like cancer and traffic deaths, on a daily basis.

So the question naturally arises, "At what point is it time to realize we've beaten this thing, and to take off our masks?" If we wait until there are absolutely NO COVID infections, then, like if we did the same for the flu, we would never be unmasked again.
BardoXV
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by BardoXV »

I don't wear a mask, except when I go out. I don't know if I can be vaccinated, I'm old and have a 'VALD.
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henry quirk
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by henry quirk »

BardoXV wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:13 pm I don't wear a mask, except when I go out. I don't know if I can be vaccinated, I'm old and have a 'VALD.
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BeatriceMom
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by BeatriceMom »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:29 pm
BeatriceMom wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:07 pm ...there have not been a large number of cases and millions of deaths from the flu, while COVID has caused enormous damage to humanity. It is not correct to compare two viruses with different contagiousness and speed of spread.
COVID appears more statistically virulent, it's true.

But it's hard to know how good the statistics are, since they're artificially hugely inflated. Where I live, for example, old folks' homes were petitioning relatives to sign off on every death as COVID because then they got additional funds from the government for each case. That was an unintended consequence of the additional government funds, but it grossly inflated our numbers. Still, it seems fair to say COVID was much worse than the flu.

The virus seems now to be going away. We're approaching majority vaccination, and while a few infections continue, fatalities are almost nil, except among high-risk groups like the obese, the elderly and the lung-impaired -- all of whom we could protect without paralyzing the entire population. We're now considerably below the levels of things like cancer and traffic deaths, on a daily basis.

So the question naturally arises, "At what point is it time to realize we've beaten this thing, and to take off our masks?" If we wait until there are absolutely NO COVID infections, then, like if we did the same for the flu, we would never be unmasked again.
Somewhere the indicators are overestimated, somewhere they are underestimated in order to quickly get out of quarantine. As a result, we have a plus or minus balanced situation in terms of morbidity.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Immanuel Can »

BeatriceMom wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:29 pm
BeatriceMom wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:07 pm ...there have not been a large number of cases and millions of deaths from the flu, while COVID has caused enormous damage to humanity. It is not correct to compare two viruses with different contagiousness and speed of spread.
COVID appears more statistically virulent, it's true.

But it's hard to know how good the statistics are, since they're artificially hugely inflated. Where I live, for example, old folks' homes were petitioning relatives to sign off on every death as COVID because then they got additional funds from the government for each case. That was an unintended consequence of the additional government funds, but it grossly inflated our numbers. Still, it seems fair to say COVID was much worse than the flu.

The virus seems now to be going away. We're approaching majority vaccination, and while a few infections continue, fatalities are almost nil, except among high-risk groups like the obese, the elderly and the lung-impaired -- all of whom we could protect without paralyzing the entire population. We're now considerably below the levels of things like cancer and traffic deaths, on a daily basis.

So the question naturally arises, "At what point is it time to realize we've beaten this thing, and to take off our masks?" If we wait until there are absolutely NO COVID infections, then, like if we did the same for the flu, we would never be unmasked again.
Somewhere the indicators are overestimated, somewhere they are underestimated in order to quickly get out of quarantine. As a result, we have a plus or minus balanced situation in terms of morbidity.
That's true. The problem is knowing just how "plus " or "minus" it is, since the statistics are being so wildly manipulated. If we include in the statistics all people who died WITH Covid, as if they all died OF Covid, we've cooked the books: because experts admit that most Covid cases are asymptomatic, and the people who die in this way likely weren't killed by Covid at all. And what about all the people who normally die of flus and other such diseases; where did they go this year? They all seem to have gotten rolled into the Covid statistics.

So the counts we're hearing are far more likely to be inflated than underrepresented, though both are possible, of course.
Gary Childress
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:17 pm And what about all the people who normally die of flus and other such diseases; where did they go this year? They all seem to have gotten rolled into the Covid statistics.
Maybe, maybe not.
Skepdick
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:59 pm I will say that wearing a mask does seem to help. My family and I have been wearing them pretty consistently and this past season is one of the few cold and flu seasons that none of us came down with any kind of virus or infection. Knock on wood, hope it stays that way.
All the misinformation revolves around the ambiguity of how utility is measured.

Is it about whether the mechanism works in the ideal circumstances of a lab?
Or is it whether there's any measurable effect when humans use masks haphazardly?

In the former sense masks work. Obviously! They reduce the distance, volume and density of viral particles this stuff isn't even disputed. Put on a mask and try blow out a candle.

But of course, masks (like seatbelts) don't work if you don't bloody wear them! So much of the debate is misrepresentation on behalf of those who don't want to wear masks. They are saying "Just because you are making it mandatory I am not going to abide to your mandate".

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy towards practical ineffectiveness.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:17 pm And what about all the people who normally die of flus and other such diseases; where did they go this year? They all seem to have gotten rolled into the Covid statistics.
Maybe, maybe not.
Actually, we know that they definitely were, now. They keep having to correct the statistics, because they've been including cases they shouldn't have.
Kenny92
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Kenny92 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:05 pm But of course, masks (like seatbelts) don't work if you don't bloody wear them! So much of the debate is misrepresentation on behalf of those who don't want to wear masks. They are saying "Just because you are making it mandatory I am not going to abide to your mandate".

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy towards practical ineffectiveness.
Unfortunately, people are rather careless as long as it doesn't affect them. At first, I followed all the covid restrictions. But eventually, it went downhill, and I let loose. After experiencing it all for myself, I understand that I wouldn't want to go through it again.
Skepdick
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Skepdick »

Kenny92 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:08 am Unfortunately, people are rather careless as long as it doesn't affect them. At first, I followed all the covid restrictions. But eventually, it went downhill, and I let loose. After experiencing it all for myself, I understand that I wouldn't want to go through it again.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of those who piss on the electric fence, some people need to piss on the electric fence themselves...
Kenny92
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Kenny92 »

Skepdick wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:42 pm Some people can learn from the mistakes of those who piss on the electric fence, some people need to piss on the electric fence themselves...
You're goddamn right.
Age
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Re: Masks Seem to Help

Post by Age »

EVERY one learns through 'experiences'. So, EVERY one NEEDS to 'piss on the electric fence/touch the flame or hot stove themselves' to KNOW heat, that is; until they reach an age where they can mentally comprehend and understand, themselves.

NO one KNOWS the heat of a fire UNTIL they 'experience' it for themselves, but the effect of heat or electricity on "others" can be 'experienced' through other than the feeling senses.

After a certain age the effects of electricity on one's genitals can be KNOWN. But this can only be KNOWN AFTER some sort of 'experience'.
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