The Liar Paradox

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Gary Childress
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The Liar Paradox

Post by Gary Childress »

This guy seems to be pretty sharp and his methods of presentation seem relatively clear and understandable compared to others I've viewed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4u2i9v4vg

Thoughts?
Age
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:32 pm This guy seems to be pretty sharp and his methods of presentation seem relatively clear and understandable compared to others I've viewed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4u2i9v4vg

Thoughts?
What were you UNCLEAR and NOT UNDERSTANDING, BEFORE?

Also, what does the word 'paradox' even mean or refer to in the phrase or term, 'The liar paradox', to you?

And, just like the so-called 'liar paradox', it did NOT make sense in that video to CLAIM that:
'The liar paradox is VERY SIMPLE, when that person had itself only JUST, supposedly and allegedly, worked it out, WITH the help FROM "another".'
And,
'Well WHEN a sentence is true, you LOOK AT what that sentence SAYS.'

The second CLAIM is OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, and Incorrect. As well as being ABSURD and NONSENSICAL just like the statements and CLAIMS, 'This sentence is false', or, 'This sentence is true', are BOTH Truly ABSURD and NONSENSICAL and NOT 'paradoxical' AT ALL, from BOTH of the OPPOSING definitions of the 'paradox' word.

The adult human beings, back in the 'old days' when this was being written, REALLY DID NEED to take much more CARE to ACTUALLY LISTEN TO what they ACTUALLY SAY and CLAIM.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Liar Paradox

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"We should ..." Brightman's voice trailed off. "We should ... what?" asked Sara. "... stop here" replied Brightman, almost whispering. Sara did a 360, trying to figure out why. The spot wasn't exactly a we-should-stop-here kinda place. She looked at Brightman questioningly. Brightman wasn't really an expert on wilderness, preferring the predictability of civilization, but he sat down now, surveying, intently, the stone, rocks, bushes, broken branches and pine cones littered on the ground. He turned to Sara and in that same mysterious tone, "Stop here Sara."
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Agent Smith wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 am "We should ..." Brightman's voice trailed off. "We should ... what?" asked Sara. "... stop here" replied Brightman, almost whispering. Sara did a 360, trying to figure out why. The spot wasn't exactly a we-should-stop-here kinda place. She looked at Brightman questioningly. Brightman wasn't really an expert on wilderness, preferring the predictability of civilization, but he sat down now, surveying, intently, the stone, rocks, bushes, broken branches and pine cones littered on the ground. He turned to Sara and in that same mysterious tone, "Stop here Sara."
The words "stop here" are the killing stroke to philosophical inquiry. People are afraid of nothingness and this fear is without reason.
Gary Childress
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Gary Childress »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:00 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 am "We should ..." Brightman's voice trailed off. "We should ... what?" asked Sara. "... stop here" replied Brightman, almost whispering. Sara did a 360, trying to figure out why. The spot wasn't exactly a we-should-stop-here kinda place. She looked at Brightman questioningly. Brightman wasn't really an expert on wilderness, preferring the predictability of civilization, but he sat down now, surveying, intently, the stone, rocks, bushes, broken branches and pine cones littered on the ground. He turned to Sara and in that same mysterious tone, "Stop here Sara."
The words "stop here" are the killing stroke to philosophical inquiry. People are afraid of nothingness and this fear is without reason.
I just look at his avatar and think of the original Matrix movie, where the guy in his avatar represents the forces that are running the giant, gory "battery" farm from which they first rescue the character Neo before Neo joins the group. I haven't seen any of the other sequels in full, though, maybe in the sequels they flesh out the "bad guys" more, and they turn out to be just ordinary people too or something. I don't know.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Agent Smith »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:00 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 am "We should ..." Brightman's voice trailed off. "We should ... what?" asked Sara. "... stop here" replied Brightman, almost whispering. Sara did a 360, trying to figure out why. The spot wasn't exactly a we-should-stop-here kinda place. She looked at Brightman questioningly. Brightman wasn't really an expert on wilderness, preferring the predictability of civilization, but he sat down now, surveying, intently, the stone, rocks, bushes, broken branches and pine cones littered on the ground. He turned to Sara and in that same mysterious tone, "Stop here Sara."
The words "stop here" are the killing stroke to philosophical inquiry. People are afraid of nothingness and this fear is without reason.
That rings true mon ami! A certain Canadian songster agrees with you and, for better/worse, I have no good reason to disagree with her.
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Agent Smith
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Agent Smith »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:16 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:00 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 am "We should ..." Brightman's voice trailed off. "We should ... what?" asked Sara. "... stop here" replied Brightman, almost whispering. Sara did a 360, trying to figure out why. The spot wasn't exactly a we-should-stop-here kinda place. She looked at Brightman questioningly. Brightman wasn't really an expert on wilderness, preferring the predictability of civilization, but he sat down now, surveying, intently, the stone, rocks, bushes, broken branches and pine cones littered on the ground. He turned to Sara and in that same mysterious tone, "Stop here Sara."
The words "stop here" are the killing stroke to philosophical inquiry. People are afraid of nothingness and this fear is without reason.
I just look at his avatar and think of the original Matrix movie, where the guy in his avatar represents the forces that are running the giant, gory "battery" farm from which they first rescue the character Neo before Neo joins the group. I haven't seen any of the other sequels in full, though, maybe in the sequels they flesh out the "bad guys" more, and they turn out to be just ordinary people too or something. I don't know.
I'll take that as a compliment Mr. I'm-a-loser-but-no-not-really :)
Agent Smith wrote:Thank you ... but ... as you well know Mr. Anderson ... appearances can be deceiving, which brings me back to the reason why ... blah blah blah yak yak yak
PeteOlcott
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by PeteOlcott »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:32 pm This guy seems to be pretty sharp and his methods of presentation seem relatively clear and understandable compared to others I've viewed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4u2i9v4vg

Thoughts?
I have studied the Liar Paradox and it relatives for two decades.
"This sentence is not true" is simply not a truth bearer because it is self-contradictory.
It was only considered a Paradox when attempting to determine whether it is true or false.
It is neither true nor false.

The Tarski Undefinability Theorem is anchored in the Liar Paradox
https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_275_276.pdf
Skepdick
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Skepdick »

PeteOlcott wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:48 pm It was only considered a Paradox when attempting to determine whether it is true or false.
It is neither true nor false.
And here I thought the Liar's paradox is just an incomplete sentence.

Here is the completion: "This sentence is false and true".

The sentence is just the |1> qubit until a human determines it to be false, true, false, true, false, true, false, true...
PeteOlcott
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by PeteOlcott »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:32 pm This guy seems to be pretty sharp and his methods of presentation seem relatively clear and understandable compared to others I've viewed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4u2i9v4vg

Thoughts?
Great video.
The way out of all of these issues is to simply extend the notion of a syllogism:
Semantic Necessity operator: ⊨□
(a) Some expressions of language L are stipulated to have the property of Boolean true.
(b) Some expressions of language L are a semantically necessary consequence of others.
T is a subset of (a)
True(L,X) means X ∈ (a) or T ⊨□ X
False(L,X) means T ⊨□ ~X

Copyright 2018 and 2023 P Olcott
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Liar Paradox

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:54 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:48 pm It was only considered a Paradox when attempting to determine whether it is true or false.
It is neither true nor false.
And here I thought the Liar's paradox is just an incomplete sentence.

Here is the completion: "This sentence is false and true".

The sentence is just the |1> qubit until a human determines it to be false, true, false, true, false, true, false, true...
Thus it could be argued that many paradoxes are incomplete due to the absence of a value resulting from that application of "or". But this results in another paradox of incompletion as their is no middle ground between "or" (true or false) and "not or" (true and false). One could say a third value of "somewhat 'or'" as in "somewhat true or false" but this results in another dichotomy or either "somewhat true or false" or "not somewhat true or false".

If the above makes no sense then another way of looking at it is through the question:

Where does incompletion really end in a world of perpetual finiteness that is dependent on unactualized potentiality?
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