What is P and -P?

[Terrapin Station]

What makes anything a problem or not is what an individual cares about, what they're interested in, what their preferences are, etc. Different people like/dislike different things.

Obviously, but in every instance of a "problem" the individual perceives a displeasing discrepancy between what is and what ought to be.

Which is no different than what I said. What "ought to be" is simply a way of talking about individuals' preferences, which easily differ from individual to individual.

This analogy seems to indicate deep confusion on your part . . .

First off, as you completely ignore the part about teaching.
And yes, it often is assessed completely by peers (unfortunately, because it's often enough not very popular.)

[Skepdick]

First off, as you completely ignore the part about teaching.
And yes, it often is assessed completely by peers (unfortunately, because it's often enough not very popular.)

Jazz music isn't very popular (in relation to other kinds of music) - it's not assessed by peers.

Certainly, if any Jazz musician acted as a gatekeeper for another Jazz musician being published there should be fucking outrage in the Jazz music community.

If Philosophy is merely an art, then why does any individual OR collective deem themselves "competent" to judge its quality?

[Terrapin Station]

First off, as you completely ignore the part about teaching.
And yes, it often is assessed completely by peers (unfortunately, because it's often enough not very popular.)

Jazz music isn't very popular (in relation to other kinds of music) - it's not assessed by peers.

Not that assessment was at all what I was talking about, but "it's not assessed by peers" is false. (And it should be obviously false to you if you'd spend two seconds thinking about it . . . well, or maybe if you knew anything about that world.)

[Skepdick]

Not that assessment was at all what I was talking about

You were talking about competence. And now we are talking about assessing competence.

but "it's not assessed by peers" is false. (And it should be obviously false to you if you'd spend two seconds thinking about it . . . well, or maybe if you knew anything about that world.)

I've spent about 30 seconds thinking about it, and to me it's obviously and trivially true.

If my peers are buying my music then obviously they are assessing it worthy of listening to, but that's coincidental, not incidental - anyone could've made the assessment.

And the key difference: the power of assessment is not exclusive to my peers, and neither is the power to prevent me publishing my work.

[Terrapin Station]

If my peers are buying my music then obviously they are assessing it worthy of listening to, but that's coincidental, not incidental - anyone could've made the assessment.

It seems like you're thinking about the record industry primarily. Why?

And the key difference: the power of assessment is not exclusive to my peers, and neither is the power to prevent me publishing my work.

Was someone arguing that assessment is exclusively done by peers? (For anything we might be talking about)

[Terrapin Station]

I could assess someone's ability to speak Chinese fluently, but what would that amount to?

[Skepdick]

It seems like you're thinking about the record industry primarily. Why?

I am not thinking about any industry. I am thinking about the act of "listening to my music" for which you are "paying" with your time, and probably your money.

Voting with the proverbial wallet sure seems like a viable metric of "competence" to me.

Was someone arguing that assessment is exclusively done by peers? (For anything we might be talking about)

You were. In context of "publishing Philosophical work to peer-reviewed journals"

[Skepdick]

I could assess someone's ability to speak Chinese fluently, but what would that amount to?

Seemingly about as much as your assessment that they can do Philosophy exceptionally well.

[Terrapin Station]

I am not thinking about any industry. I am thinking about the act of "listening to my music" for which you are "paying" with your time, and probably your money.

In what context is someone listening?

You were. In context of "publishing Philosophical work to peer-reviewed journals"

Nope. Nowhere did I suggest that other people CAN'T assess something.

Again, as above:
I could assess someone's ability to speak Chinese fluently, but what would that amount to?

[Terrapin Station]

Maybe if you were in a position to hire someone to do computer programming, you'd have someone like me decide whether you should hire them? (I know very little about programming, even though I took a couple programming classes in school--I did a bit of BASIC, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL . . . I remember very little of any of them.)

[Skepdick]

In what context is someone listening?

In any context in which they experience my music.

Live performance, purchased an album etc.

Nope. Nowhere did I suggest that other people CAN'T assess something.

Oh, so I can publish to a peer-reviewed journal if my mom approves?

I could assess someone's ability to speak Chinese fluently, but what would that amount to?

If you insist on sticking with this analogy...

Is Philosophy like art where anything goes because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Or is Philosophy like Chinese - a different language, incomprehensible to outsiders until you learn to speak it, but ultimately it has the equivalent utility of Italian in Italy, Chinese in China; or Philosophese in Philosophia?

[Terrapin Station]

In any context in which they experience my music.
Live performance, purchased an album etc.

Sure. "Purchased an album" means we're talking about the record industry.

Live performance for jazz often happens in contexts where it's mostly if not all peers listening. (Unless we're thinking of music associated with the record industry.)

Oh, so I can publish to a peer-reviewed journal if my mom approves?

Does that question or any possible answer to it amount to me saying that people who aren't peers can't assess something?

Can you perform a jazz recital at a university if your mom approves?
Does that question or any answer to it amount to you saying that people who aren't peers can't assess jazz?

Is Philosophy like art where anything goes because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Is any arbitrary thing you might play on a musical instrument jazz? Why wouldn't it be classical? Or punk? Or polka?

Or is Philosophy like Chinese - a different language, incomprehensible to outsiders until you learn to speak it,

You don't think that as a musician you need to learn to "speak jazz" in order to be playing jazz?

At any rate, yes, philosophy is like Chinese, or computer programming, or mathematics, or physics, or anything like that. It's not just anything you might play on an instrument, and you want to call it philosophy.

And again, stop ignoring the point I made about teaching.

[Skepdick]

Maybe if you were in a position to hire someone to do computer programming, you'd have someone like me decide whether you should hire them? (I know very little about programming, even though I took a couple programming classes in school--I did a bit of BASIC, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL . . . I remember very little of any of them.)

Determining programming competence is fully automatable - so much so that companies like Google use automated coding interviews as first filter before you ever get to speak to a human.

It's all mechanical/quantitative.

The interviews test for qualitative/inter-personal skills - not technical ones.

[Terrapin Station]

Maybe if you were in a position to hire someone to do computer programming, you'd have someone like me decide whether you should hire them? (I know very little about programming, even though I took a couple programming classes in school--I did a bit of BASIC, Pascal, Fortran and COBOL . . . I remember very little of any of them.)

Determining programming competence is fully automatable - so much so that companies like Google use automated coding interviews as first filter before you ever get to speak to a human.

It's all mechanical/quantitative.

The interviews test for qualitative/inter-personal skills - not technical ones.

So are you letting me judge or not? If not, why not?

[Skepdick]

Sure. "Purchased an album" means we're talking about the record industry.

No, it doesn't. It's 2021 - self-publication/digital distribution is a thing.

Live performance for jazz often happens in contexts where it's mostly if not all peers listening. (Unless we're thinking of music associated with the record industry.)

Seriously.

You can't tell that the social dynamic between a live performer and their audience is nothing like the dynamic between a publisher and a journal reviewer?

Does that question or any possible answer to it amount to me saying that people who aren't peers can't assess something?

I am pointing out that peers cannot block you from publishing in Jazz. They can block you from publishing in Philosophy.

Power dynamic and all that.

I can perform one if the university ap
Does that question or any answer to it amount to you saying that people who aren't peers can't assess jazz?

It amounts to saying "In Jazz my peers are not gatekeepers"

Is any arbitrary thing you might play on a musical instrument jazz? Why wouldn't it be classical? Or punk? Or polka?

Suppose we got it all classified all wrong and people still listened to it! Who cares?

You don't think that as a musician you need to learn to "speak jazz" in order to be playing jazz?

And here I thought jazz was born by improvisation and self-expression.

At any rate, yes, philosophy is like Chinese, or computer programming, or mathematics, or physics, or anything like that. It's not just anything you might play on an instrument, and you want to call it philosophy.

The thing is, I know what mathematics is, and I know what physics is and I know what computer science is - and I have vague understanding of how those three fields are deeply connected, how they constantly benefit from each other, influence each other - and often falsify each other.

Those three fields are inter-connected, and so - there's an external feedback loop. They evolve and they adapt to external pressures.

You said Philosophy doesn't.

And again, stop ignoring the point I made about teaching.

What about it? Most Jazz artists and Chinese speakers are autodidacts.