What is P and -P?

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:28 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:04 pm Sure. "Purchased an album" means we're talking about the record industry.
No, it doesn't. It's 2021 - self-publication/digital distribution is a thing.
Even if you're talking about bandcamp or CD Baby or whatever, it's still the record industry.

Is the point here that you're imagining a jazz musician selling their music from their own site and handling all the financial/business stuff themselves?

This is all I read from your post, by the way. You can keep typing longer and longer and arguing with everything if you want, but when that happens, I keep responding to shorter and shorter bits.
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Re: What is P and -P?

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:07 pm So are you letting me judge or not? If not, why not?
Well, we were talking about competence. And then we ended up talking about assessing competence.

And then we were talking about the asymmetry between fields in which the distinction between competence/incompetence is only tennable by peers,
vs fields in which the distinction is tenable to outsiders.

And I am using all of that as a metaphor for the P vs NP problem.

Do difficult feats of so-claimed competence permit easy verification/falsification thereof by outsiders?

And so, your question is utterly misguided. Because the point is not whether I'll let you judge or not.

The point is whether you can teach an outsider (non-Philosopher) that I am incompetent in distinguishing good from bad Philosophers.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:35 pm And then we were talking about the asymmetry between fields in which the distinction between competence/incompetence is only tennable by peers,
vs fields in which the distinction is tenable to outsiders.
What is an example of the latter in your view?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:30 pm Even if you're talking about bandcamp or CD Baby or whatever, it's still the record industry.
It ain't any kind of "industry" because there's no enterprises involved! Self-publication is... publication by the author!
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:30 pm Is the point here that you're imagining a jazz musician selling their music from their own site and handling all the financial/business stuff themselves?

This is all I read from your post, by the way. You can keep typing longer and longer and arguing with everything if you want, but when that happens, I keep responding to shorter and shorter bits.
No, that's not my point. My point is that making/distributing Jazz music has external feedback loops, but Philosophy doesn't.

Is your point that the recording industry are "experts on Jazz" which is why they get to determine who gets published, and who doesn't?

Because even if that's your argument - the "the recording industry" still has external feedback loop called "market demand" - very much unlike Philosophy.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:41 pm It ain't any kind of "industry" because there's no enterprises involved! Self-publication is... publication by the author!
There's an enterprise involved if you're purchasing music. The musician would be legally required to be registered at least as the sole proprietor of a business, would be required to file taxes as a business, etc. (That is if we're talking about them doing this all by their lonesome, which is an aspie point to make, because almost no one does this.)
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:44 pm There's an enterprise involved if you're purchasing music. The musician would be legally required to be registered at least as the sole proprietor of a business, would be required to file taxes as a business, etc. (That is if we're talking about them doing this all by their lonesome, which is an aspie point to make, because almost no one does this.)
You are acting like an Aspie by stretching the definition of "recording industry" to accommodate your red herring.

I should know...

Publishing to your website is self-publication.
Publishing to Apple music is self-publication.
Publishing to Youtube is self-publication.

The distinction I drew all along was one about barriers to entry.

The barrier to entry to all of those markets is not peer review.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:55 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:44 pm There's an enterprise involved if you're purchasing music. The musician would be legally required to be registered at least as the sole proprietor of a business, would be required to file taxes as a business, etc. (That is if we're talking about them doing this all by their lonesome, which is an aspie point to make, because almost no one does this.)
You are acting like an Aspie by stretching the definition of "recording industry" to accommodate your red herring.

I should know...

Publishing to your website is self-publication.
Publishing to Apple music is self-publication.
Publishing to Youtube is self-publication.

The distinction I drew all along was one about barriers to entry.

The barrier to entry to all of those markets is not peer review.
You've always been able to self-publish in the record industry. That doesn't make you not part of the record industry. You're just an independent contractor in it. At any rate, I wasn't talking about the record industry (which is why I brought up the fact that you seemed to be thinking about it as if I was.)
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:01 pm At any rate, I wasn't talking about the record industry (which is why I brought up the fact that you seemed to be thinking about it as if I was.)
So if you don't consider market demand for a work of Jazz as an indicators of competence, then what sort of vacuous notion of "competence" do you have in mind?

Rinse, repeat and we are back to self-skepticism.

If you were an (aspiring?) Jazz musician, how would you determine that you are "competent" at it? Is praise by your peers sufficient?
How do you know that they are competent at asserting competence?

Who or what determines the competence of the supposedly-competent?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:21 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:01 pm At any rate, I wasn't talking about the record industry (which is why I brought up the fact that you seemed to be thinking about it as if I was.)
So if you don't consider market demand for a work of Jazz as an indicators of competence
It wasn't what I was talking about.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:21 pm
The first thing I wrote was this, which to this point, you've completely ignored:

"Think of it this way, could you teach a course about jazz music without having learned about jazz music, without having immersed yourself in it, its history, learning about the major works of the genre, etc.? "
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:27 pm "Think of it this way, could you teach a course about jazz music without having learned about jazz music, without having immersed yourself in it, its history, learning about the major works of the genre, etc.? "
Am I teaching the HISTORY of jazz music, or are am I teaching somebody how to PLAY jazz music?

Do you even recognise the parallax between the 1st and 3rd person perspective on competence?

Knowing the HISTORY of jazz music does not make one a competent Jazz musician!
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:37 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:27 pm "Think of it this way, could you teach a course about jazz music without having learned about jazz music, without having immersed yourself in it, its history, learning about the major works of the genre, etc.? "
Am I teaching the HISTORY of jazz music, or are am I teaching somebody how to PLAY jazz music?

Do you even recognise the parallax between the 1st and 3rd person perspective on competence?

Knowing the HISTORY of jazz music does not make one a competent Jazz musician!
If you're familiar with the conventions of English, "A course about jazz music" should tell you that we're talking about something like a history or appreciation course. Otherwise we'd say "Could you teach a jazz composition class," or "Could you teach jazz piano" or whatever.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:44 pm If you're familiar with the conventions of English, "A course about jazz music" should tell you that we're talking about something like a history or appreciation course. Otherwise we'd say "Could you teach a jazz composition class," or "Could you teach jazz piano" or whatever.
I understand exactly what you are talking about.

I don't understand how Jazz appreciation equates with Jazz competence.

Having taught said class to a person and them having passed said class with flying colours does not make them OR the teacher a "competent Jazz musician".

It makes them aficionados of Jazz.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:46 pm I understand exactly what you are talking about.

I don't understand how Jazz appreciation equates with Jazz competence.
It was a question. What's your answer to the question?

Could you teach the course . . .?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:48 pm It was a question. What's your answer to the question?

Could you teach the course . . .?
Suppose I could! it doesn't make me competent in Jazz.

it makes me a Jazz aficionado! Nothing to do with competence.

Competent to teach Jazz history is not competent at Jazz. Colloquially: Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach.
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