What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:48 pm It was a question. What's your answer to the question?

Could you teach the course . . .?
Suppose I could!
Okay, so let's suppose you could. Who do you think would hire you, first off?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:51 pm Okay, so let's suppose you could. Who do you think would hire you, first off?
An entity whose business model benefits from teaching the history of Jazz, even if that (in no way) translates to Jazz competence.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:51 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:48 pm It was a question. What's your answer to the question?

Could you teach the course . . .?
Suppose I could!
Okay, so let's suppose you could. Who do you think would hire you, first off?
Your selective quotation/ignoring of my words reminds me of a joke...

WITTGENSTEIN: I won’t say anything which anyone can dispute. Or if anyone does dispute it, I will let that point drop and pass on to say something else.

TURING: I understand but I don’t agree that it is simply a question of giving new meanings to words.

WITTGENSTEIN: Turing doesn’t object to anything I say. He agrees with every word.

TURING: I see your point.

WITTGENSTEIN: I don’t have a point.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:54 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:51 pm Okay, so let's suppose you could. Who do you think would hire you, first off?
An entity whose business model benefits from teaching the history of Jazz, even if that (in no way) translates to Jazz competence.
I'm not asking you for vague hypotheticals. Tell me someone you have in mind as a practical matter. Who do you think would hire you to teach a course about jazz where you never learned about jazz, never immersed yourself in it, never learned about its history, major works of the genre, etc.? What sort of "entity" would we even have in mind who teaches courses about jazz anyway?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:56 pm Your selective quotation/ignoring of my words reminds me of a joke...
The joke is people continuing to type more than I'm going to respond to or even bother to read, despite me making explicit what I'm going to do.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:57 pm I'm not asking you for vague hypotheticals. Tell me someone you have in mind as a practical matter. Who do you think would hire you to teach a course about jazz where you never learned about jazz, never immersed yourself in it, never learned about its history, major works of the genre, etc.? What sort of "entity" would we even have in mind who teaches courses about jazz anyway?
Well you are asking me hypotheticals. You are working over-time to frame the discussion around teaching jazz history - so obviously you are talking about academia. The the world is bigger than academia, so I have absolutely no idea how any of this relates to Jazz competence.

Obviously nobody would hire me to teach Jazz history in academia, but would they hire me if they were looking for a competent Jazz musician?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:58 pm The joke is people continuing to type more than I'm going to respond to or even bother to read, despite me making explicit what I'm going to do.
Pot, kettle!

All I asked you to do is tell me is what determines competence in Jazz.

And now you are on a tangent about Jazz history.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:02 pm obviously you are talking about academia. The the world is bigger than academia,
Of course. But I'm asking you a specific question about the real world and just what it's like, at least at present.
so I have absolutely no idea how any of this relates to Jazz competence.
It has to do with competence in a given field.
Obviously nobody would hire me to teach Jazz history in academia
RIght. And that competence in this case is judged solely by people already in the field. Not by "outsiders."
but would they hire me if they were looking for a competent Jazz musician?
No jazz band/artist would if you don't have a sufficient background in jazz, which includes familiarity with the genre, because it's not possible to have the skills or vocabulary they're looking for without that background.

Re the language comparison I made earlier, it's very much like that. It requires fluency in the language, a good vocabulary, familiarity with conventional concepts, being able to speak it with a "native accent," etc., all of which isn't possible without some immersion/study/practice, etc.
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:03 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:58 pm The joke is people continuing to type more than I'm going to respond to or even bother to read, despite me making explicit what I'm going to do.
Pot, kettle!

All I asked you to do is tell me is what determines competence in Jazz.

And now you are on a tangent about Jazz history.
I was on what I started with--the first sentence of this part, which you kept ignoring.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:07 pm It has to do with competence in a given field.
Which is precisely why I asked you the question: Does competence in the history of Jazz (in the narrow scope of academia) determine competence in Jazz (in the broader scope of society) ?
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:07 pm RIght. And that competence in this case is judged solely by people already in the field. Not by "outsiders."
OK! But you are still talking about competence in Jazz history, not competence in the practicing of Jazz.

So if we are to return back to your original point, you would be talking about competence in the history of Philosophy, not competence in the practicing of Philosophy.

You are talking about competence to teach, not competence in the application of the teachings.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:07 pm No jazz band/artist would if you don't have a sufficient background in jazz, which includes familiarity with the genre, because it's not possible to have the skills or vocabulary they're looking for without that background.
Tell that to the pioneers of Jazz music.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:15 pm Which is precisely why I asked you the question: Does competence in the history of Jazz (in the narrow scope of academia) determine competence in Jazz (in the broader scope of society) ?
What does the latter refer to, exactly? What would "competence in jazz in the broader scope of society" be, even?
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:07 pm RIght. And that competence in this case is judged solely by people already in the field. Not by "outsiders."
OK! But you are still talking about competence in Jazz history, not competence in the practicing of Jazz.
Yes, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FIRST QUESTION I ASKED YOU. It's not just one issue.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:07 pm No jazz band/artist would if you don't have a sufficient background in jazz, which includes familiarity with the genre, because it's not possible to have the skills or vocabulary they're looking for without that background.
Tell that to the pioneers of Jazz music.
I know from first-hand experience, because I've worked with some of the pioneers of jazz music.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm What does the latter refer to, exactly? What would "competence in jazz in the broader scope of society" be, even?
That IS precisely what I am asking you about competence in Philosophy!
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm Yes, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FIRST QUESTION I ASKED YOU. It's not just one issue.
Do you even remember me saying "I am not interested in publication, I am interested application"? Or do you not read my comments before you respond?

It is one and the same issue. What would "competence" in Philosophy in the broader scope of society be?

Because that pertains directly to my point about the verifiability of incompetence by outsiders!

I have absolutely no idea how to verify whether somebody teaching the history of Electricity is incompetent.
I have many ways to verify that an Electrician or an Electrical Engineer is incompetent.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm I know from first-hand experience, because I've worked with some of the pioneers of jazz music.
So who determined their competence on the history of Jazz?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:25 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm What does the latter refer to, exactly? What would "competence in jazz in the broader scope of society" be, even?
That IS precisely what I am asking you about competence in Philosophy!
But I never said anything about "competence in philosophy in the broader scope of society."
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm Yes, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE FIRST QUESTION I ASKED YOU. It's not just one issue.
Do you even remember me saying "I am not interested in publication, I am interested application"? Or do you not read my comments before you respond?
I read that, but I already told you that as responses are continually argumentative and keep getting longer/bringing up more issues, I do NOT read the entirety of them. How many times am I going to have to tell you that?
I have many ways to verify/falsify the competence of an Electrician!
You'd be judging the end result of something they did in your house, say. That might not be a very good indicator of their general competence or lack of the same. There could be a lot of reasons that something doesn't get done right on a particular job you employ someone for that have nothing to do with their general competence. And of course you might judge that they did a fine job because insofar as you know, everything seems to be working, but maybe they were incompetent and something they did is going to wind up causing huge problems down the road. Unless you know much about electrical work, you don't have a good basis for making an assessment beyond the most superficial, immediate elements that you can relate to in your limited knowledge.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 pm I know from first-hand experience, because I've worked with some of the pioneers of jazz music.
So who tested their competence on the history of Jazz?
The musicians they worked with. Again, they wouldn't have gotten the gig without the right background, because it's not possible to have the skills, vocabulary, etc. without that background. That's no more possible than it would be for you to speak Chinese fluently, like a native, etc. without a sufficient background/immersion in Chinese. And if you don't have that background, it's also not possible for you to judge whether someone is speaking Chinese that way. You don't know, because you don't have the knowledge you need to judge.
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:31 pm But I never said anything about "competence in philosophy in the broader scope of society."
I know!!! I understood that, which is precisely why I said that Philosophy is an echo chamber!

It lacks external feedback loops necessary for adaptation / osmosis with broader society.

I also asked why you think lack of adaptation is not a problem for Philosophy, but you ignored the question.
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:31 pm I read that, but I already told you that as responses are continually argumentative and keep getting longer/bringing up more issues, I do NOT read the entirety of them. How many times am I going to have to tell you that?
None! If you actually addressed my concerns right at the beginning!

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:31 pm You'd be judging the end result of something they did in your house, say. That might not be a very good indicator of their general competence or lack of the same. There could be a lot of reasons that something doesn't get done right on a particular job you employ someone for that have nothing to do with their general competence.
I am not interested in their general competence, I am interested in their particular competence in their particular field of know-how: Electrical problems.

Things could go wrong once, maybe twice, maybe three times. But by that point you best be looking for a 2nd opinion.

So, we both know what "Electrical work going wrong in practice" looks like (even though we don't understand all the details).

What does "Philosophy going wrong in practice" look like?
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:31 pm The musicians they worked with. Again, they wouldn't have gotten the gig without the right background, because it's not possible to have the skills, vocabulary, etc. without that background. That's no more possible than it would be for you to speak Chinese fluently, like a native, etc. without a sufficient background/immersion in Chinese.
How is that even possible? How does one even begin to develop a vocabulary about "jazz music" when Jazz music doesn't exist yet?
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Re: What is P and -P?

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Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:31 pm That's no more possible than it would be for you to speak Chinese fluently, like a native, etc. without a sufficient background/immersion in Chinese. And if you don't have that background, it's also not possible for you to judge whether someone is speaking Chinese that way.
You know what I am observing in you. The typical mindset I observe in every Philosopher and unlike forum assholes (of which, there are apparently at least 3 types) there is only one kind of Philosopher. The not-very-bright kind.

You constantly seek brilliance, instead of avoiding stupidity.

I am at no position to assert anybody's competence in Chinese, but I have all the resources in the world to determine their incompetence in Chinese!

I show them this text 請開燈, or I play them the corresponding audio from Google Translate.

And then I watch if they do what I asked them to do.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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