What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
Immanuel Can
Posts: 10512
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
Oh, for heaven's sake...take a course in logic, will you? Even a 101.

Substitute any number for "P," and you'll see how utterly silly this is. You're now arguing that "5" doesn't mean "5."
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:11 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
Oh, for heaven's sake...take a course in logic, will you? Even a 101.

Substitute any number for "P," and you'll see how utterly silly this is. You're now arguing that "5" doesn't mean "5."
5 airplanes are different from 5 horses, one five does not equivocate to another.
Immanuel Can
Posts: 10512
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:18 pm 5 airplanes are different from 5 horses, one five does not equivocate to another.
I said "number." I said nothing about "objects."

Sculptor
Posts: 2695
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
Nope
Whilst it is true that no two Ps can ever be the same, the expression is not saying that.
So
P=P is true
whilst
one P = another P is false
Harbal
Posts: 4360
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
So if P doesn't equal P, what does equal P?
Sculptor
Posts: 2695
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Harbal wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:43 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
So if P doesn't equal P, what does equal P?
I think P is equal to wee.
As when I take a P I tend to wee
henry quirk
Posts: 10004
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

P=P

how is a thing is identical with itself contradictory?
Harbal
Posts: 4360
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:54 pm
Harbal wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:43 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
So if P doesn't equal P, what does equal P?
I think P is equal to wee.
As when I take a P I tend to wee
At last, philosophy we can apply to real life.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:58 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:18 pm 5 airplanes are different from 5 horses, one five does not equivocate to another.
I said "number." I said nothing about "objects."

Numbers are a means of counting thus defined by what they count. As such they are objects given multiple people can observe the same thing simultaneously (hence the root for objectivity being multiple aligning subjective states).

Empirical reality presents itself as proof for what a number is or is not. Numbers are phenomenon which correspond to another phenomenon thus defined by the phenomenon they reflect. In observing 5 what one is observing is 5 forms with the most basic form being that of a number line. Numbers are inseperable from the phenomenon they quantify. A number equates to a form, forms equate to further forms, thus number equates to number.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Sculptor wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm P=P is circular reasoning given the same assertion made in the beginning is the same as in the end. P=P is thus a contradiction.
Nope
Whilst it is true that no two Ps can ever be the same, the expression is not saying that.
So
P=P is true
whilst
one P = another P is false
That other P is still a P.

The P exists recursively thus necessitates the P existing in multiple states. As existing in multiple states, through recursion, one P differentiates from another. An example of this would be a single person's identity changing across a span in time. The person in x time and space is not the same person in y time and space yet a common underlying bond of identity repetition is unavoidable. The person is both equal and not equal to him or herself simultaneously.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:03 pm P=P

how is a thing is identical with itself contradictory?
Because of circular reasoning, the beginning is the same as the end. It is arguing identity is a loop which contradicts the standard fallacies.
henry quirk
Posts: 10004
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:03 pm P=P

how is a thing is identical with itself contradictory?
Because of circular reasoning, the beginning is the same as the end. It is arguing identity is a loop which contradicts the standard fallacies.
so, if I say I am me (and no other), that is, quirk is quirk, my self-reference (circular reasoning) is contradictory and -- in fact -- I am not me

ok, then...
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6637
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:03 pm P=P

how is a thing is identical with itself contradictory?
Because of circular reasoning, the beginning is the same as the end. It is arguing identity is a loop which contradicts the standard fallacies.
so, if I say I am me (and no other), that is, quirk is quirk, my self-reference (circular reasoning) is contradictory and -- in fact -- I am not me

ok, then...
According to the fallacies any self referentiality is false due to its circular form falling under the contradiction of circular reasoning.
henry quirk
Posts: 10004
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

### Re: P=P is a Contradiction

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:45 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm

Because of circular reasoning, the beginning is the same as the end. It is arguing identity is a loop which contradicts the standard fallacies.
so, if I say I am me (and no other), that is, quirk is quirk, my self-reference (circular reasoning) is contradictory and -- in fact -- I am not me

ok, then...
According to the fallacies any self referentiality is false due to its circular form falling under the contradiction of circular reasoning.
so, who am I?