Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Skepdick
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm The result is for all of us to see today: mathematicians now believe that logic in the sense it was understood in the Aristotelian tradition is a figment of the imagination, a philosophical construct, and claim instead that there is an infinite number of logics.
It is a figment of the imagination. Logic takes place in human minds. That is what my mind does - it imagines stuff. Some of the stuff my mind imagines is logic.

It's part and parcel of the whole "creativity" thing. I have absolutely no idea why you think that's a "bad" thing.
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm They essentially started out with Boole, Pierce and Frege trying to produce a model of the logic of human reasoning. Then they failed. Then they disagreed as to which model was best. Then they went their separate ways, and now any mathematicians can make up their own private pseudo-logic, from 1st order, to 2nd order, to intuitionistic, to paraconsistent, to whatever they fancy when they get up in the morning. This has to be the most massive failure of the rational mind ever.
You see the democratization of logic as a "massive failure" of logic?!?!? You see the accessibility of higher order logic to millions of people as a bad thing ?

What sort of elitist ethic are you making this claim from?

What sort of cookie-cuttter robotic politburo "rational mind" would you rather impose on us?
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm Mathematicians will be the laughing-stock of future generations who will look back in dismay at the mess mathematical logic is in now.
For as long as Philosophers exist, Mathematicians are at no risk of becoming a laughing stock.
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Speakpigeon
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:35 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:39 pm Yet another fallacious comment. I didn't say that we needed dictionaries to be able to speak.

However, if you want to know the etymology, you look up a dictionary, you don't believe some false etymology made up by some anonymous Internet user.
EB
If you want to know about the etymology of the words that I invent, I am probably the only person you can ask about it...
First off, you need to look up a dictionary because you clearly don't know what the word "etymology" means:
Etymology 1. The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as shown by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in form and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, identifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancestral form where possible.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:35 pm No dictionary could possibly tell you about my protologisms.
And who cares?
Skepdick wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:35 pm But if you insist that I require Dictionary approval before I re-purpose or invent a new phrase, please do let me know where I can get the forms required to ask for permission...
Yet another fallacious comment.
EB
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Speakpigeon
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Skepdick wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:25 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm The result is for all of us to see today: mathematicians now believe that logic in the sense it was understood in the Aristotelian tradition is a figment of the imagination, a philosophical construct, and claim instead that there is an infinite number of logics.
It is a figment of the imagination. Logic takes place in human minds. That is what my mind does - it imagines stuff. Some of the stuff my mind imagines is logic.

It's part and parcel of the whole "creativity" thing. I have absolutely no idea why you think that's a "bad" thing.
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm They essentially started out with Boole, Pierce and Frege trying to produce a model of the logic of human reasoning. Then they failed. Then they disagreed as to which model was best. Then they went their separate ways, and now any mathematicians can make up their own private pseudo-logic, from 1st order, to 2nd order, to intuitionistic, to paraconsistent, to whatever they fancy when they get up in the morning. This has to be the most massive failure of the rational mind ever.
You see the democratization of logic as a "massive failure" of logic?!?!? You see the accessibility of higher order logic to millions of people as a bad thing ?

What sort of elitist ethic are you making this claim from?

What sort of cookie-cuttter robotic politburo "rational mind" would you rather impose on us?
Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:55 pm Mathematicians will be the laughing-stock of future generations who will look back in dismay at the mess mathematical logic is in now.
For as long as Philosophers exist, Mathematicians are at no risk of becoming a laughing stock.
Yet another fallacious post.
EB
Skepdick
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Speakpigeon wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:47 pm First off, you need to look up a dictionary because you clearly don't know what the word "etymology" means.
Appeal to authority AND post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy! Round of applause required.

The word "etymology" had a meaning before it appeared in a dictionary.
Speakpigeon wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:47 pm And who cares?
You do. Apparently.

The very word "etymology" was once a protologism.
Speakpigeon wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:47 pm Yet another fallacious comment.
No need to tell us your comments are fallacious - just stop making them.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

Post by Scott Mayers »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:22 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm Etymology has ALWAYS had political interference. Dictionaries (and etymogoly) are written by people with OPINIONS that cannot be dismissed. Look up most of the biblical terms that present definite links to the prior Egyptians, for example, has been intentionally manipulated into scripts that had to pass political 'canonizing': censorship and book-burning, being the feature that destroys the proper history.

Are you suggesting that dictionaries are essentially opinions?!
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm The root parts of a word have to be looked up, not merely the full evolved term. Words evolve by constructing from prior terms and parts.
Which is why we need dictionaries to give the etymology of words. We don't need people to invent false etymologies.
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm "Contradicition" comes from logic, not colloquial use of today's express uses or proprietary labeling. Most of the population at all times are relatively uneducatied to formal terms of logic.
The etymology of "contradiction" is as follows:
The prefix Contra- comes from the Latin contrā, meaning against (see kom in Indo-European roots).
Contradiction litereally means "speak contrary to".
Contrary comes from the Middle English contrarie, from Anglo-Norman, from Latin contrārius, contrā, against.
So, nothing to do with "with a third option asserted" as you claim.
EB
I disagree. The origins come from the thinkers of the Greek idea of proving things WITHOUT bias to meaning. Thus the safe way to prevent bias ABOUT confusing thoughts is to not bias reality as REQUIRING to deny what cannot SEEM rational. The Pythagoreans realized the risk of assuming what was 'rational' is sufficient to express all numbers.

Contradiction, which has evolved to mean something that is not acceptable in argument, is postulated apiori.The term begun neutral and so it makes sense that the origins were neutral. The meaning of this to refer to something uncomfortable is an emotional extention of the logical meaning, like how a term that begun as a neutral description of one's place of origin, ....for instance, ...like those from Nigeria traders as "Nigers" ...now, properly "Nigerian", became a derogatory emotional term due to how people thought OF them with regards to slavery. The term "contradiction" was distinctly a reference to being able to have three (or more) values to something assumed limited to two. That's the neutral meaning of it as the ancients would have interpreted it when developing intellectual reflection about the world.
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:22 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm Etymology has ALWAYS had political interference. Dictionaries (and etymogoly) are written by people with OPINIONS that cannot be dismissed. Look up most of the biblical terms that present definite links to the prior Egyptians, for example, has been intentionally manipulated into scripts that had to pass political 'canonizing': censorship and book-burning, being the feature that destroys the proper history.

Are you suggesting that dictionaries are essentially opinions?!
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm The root parts of a word have to be looked up, not merely the full evolved term. Words evolve by constructing from prior terms and parts.
Which is why we need dictionaries to give the etymology of words. We don't need people to invent false etymologies.
Scott Mayers wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:58 pm "Contradicition" comes from logic, not colloquial use of today's express uses or proprietary labeling. Most of the population at all times are relatively uneducatied to formal terms of logic.
The etymology of "contradiction" is as follows:
The prefix Contra- comes from the Latin contrā, meaning against (see kom in Indo-European roots).
Contradiction litereally means "speak contrary to".
Contrary comes from the Middle English contrarie, from Anglo-Norman, from Latin contrārius, contrā, against.
So, nothing to do with "with a third option asserted" as you claim.
EB
I disagree.
Sure, you disagree with the etymology of the word "contradiction" given by all serious dictionaries.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am The origins come from the thinkers of the Greek idea of proving things WITHOUT bias to meaning.
Without bias to meaning?! Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. What I understand is the etymology of the word "contradiction" given by all serious dictionaries.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am Thus the safe way to prevent bias ABOUT confusing thoughts is to not bias reality as REQUIRING to deny what cannot SEEM rational. The Pythagoreans realized the risk of assuming what was 'rational' is sufficient to express all numbers.
Sorry, still completely meaningless to me.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am Contradiction, which has evolved to mean something that is not acceptable in argument, is postulated apiori.The term begun neutral and so it makes sense that the origins were neutral. The meaning of this to refer to something uncomfortable is an emotional extention of the logical meaning, like how a term that begun as a neutral description of one's place of origin, ....for instance, ...like those from Nigeria traders as "Nigers" ...now, properly "Nigerian", became a derogatory emotional term due to how people thought OF them with regards to slavery. The term "contradiction" was distinctly a reference to being able to have three (or more) values to something assumed limited to two. That's the neutral meaning of it as the ancients would have interpreted it when developing intellectual reflection about the world.
This is all made up and essentially nonsensical.
Have a good day.
EB
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Hiroshi Satow wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:26 am Dear logicians!

I think I’ve come up with something beyond the Law of Noncontradiction. Unfortunately, I’m not a trained philosopher, let alone a logician. I’m not sure whether I’m right or wrong, or rather, how wrong I am and how I am wrong. Anyway, here is what I’ve been thinking about.

In Plato’s Republic Socrates says “It is obvious that the same thing will never or suffer opposites in the same respect in relation to the same thing and at the same time.”(Republic 4:436b) Aristotle writes, “The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect.”(Metaphysics G, 3, 1005b18-20)

These are thought of as advocating the law of noncontradiction. Admitting of course what they say, in my opinion, there can be another kind of contradiction: It is that you cannot do two things at the same time, be they contradictory or not to one another. The so-called law of noncontradiction is just one case of it. To be sure, it cannot be true that you can take a step forward with both the right and the left legs at the same time. If you are using the right leg, to take a step forward, then you are not using the left one, and vice versa. To simultaneously use them both is against the law of noncontradiction, which is why you never can make it.

However, it seems to me that it also cannot be the case that you can take a step forward with the right leg twice at the same time. This is because you can use your right leg only once at a time. To use the right leg does not necessarily contradict with the use of the right leg. On the contrary, they are completely the same thing. No inconsistency can be found between the use of the right leg and the use of the right leg. Regardless, on no account can you afford to do that.

So, at least in some cases, I think you can say that in the world there can be found two facts that cannot concur, happening simultaneously, which might be named the Law of Nonconcurrence or whatever, one of which you call the Law of Noncontradiction, and the other the law of Nonrecurrence or something like that.

Thinking along these lines, the Law of Noncontradiction is not the ultimate law but can be derived from the Law of Nonconcurrence, just as the Law of Nonrecurrence is.

Could any one of you be kind enough to tell or teach me how I am wrong and/or how wrong I am?
Sorry, there are no logicians here.
EB
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Speakpigeon wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:15 pm Sorry, there are no logicians here.
EB
Frenchie, you are the one who insists on having a science of logic. A science to investigate "logic as objective performance and manifest capability of human beings".

If logic is, in fact, an "objective performance and manifest capability of human beings" then ALL humans are logicians.
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

Post by Scott Mayers »

Speakpigeon wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:22 pm
Are you suggesting that dictionaries are essentially opinions?!


Which is why we need dictionaries to give the etymology of words. We don't need people to invent false etymologies.

The etymology of "contradiction" is as follows:

So, nothing to do with "with a third option asserted" as you claim.
EB
I disagree.
Sure, you disagree with the etymology of the word "contradiction" given by all serious dictionaries.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am The origins come from the thinkers of the Greek idea of proving things WITHOUT bias to meaning.
Without bias to meaning?! Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. What I understand is the etymology of the word "contradiction" given by all serious dictionaries.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am Thus the safe way to prevent bias ABOUT confusing thoughts is to not bias reality as REQUIRING to deny what cannot SEEM rational. The Pythagoreans realized the risk of assuming what was 'rational' is sufficient to express all numbers.
Sorry, still completely meaningless to me.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 am Contradiction, which has evolved to mean something that is not acceptable in argument, is postulated apiori.The term begun neutral and so it makes sense that the origins were neutral. The meaning of this to refer to something uncomfortable is an emotional extention of the logical meaning, like how a term that begun as a neutral description of one's place of origin, ....for instance, ...like those from Nigeria traders as "Nigers" ...now, properly "Nigerian", became a derogatory emotional term due to how people thought OF them with regards to slavery. The term "contradiction" was distinctly a reference to being able to have three (or more) values to something assumed limited to two. That's the neutral meaning of it as the ancients would have interpreted it when developing intellectual reflection about the world.
This is all made up and essentially nonsensical.
Have a good day.
EB
Thank you, I had a great day and more!

You're welcome to your own beliefs. My etymological interpretation is correct to its MEANINGS and to the way one can reconstruct the origins treating words as evolutionary memes. I already asserted that my own etymological interpretation is not intended to be precise. It is 'accurate' though and has more rational sense than the IMPOSED 'etymology' by those of religious arrogance who WANTS to hide their religion's link to prior non-religious realities.

"God" corresponds to "good" etymologically and was originally an emotional ADJECTIVE used to describe a religious interpretation about Nature. This doesn't need a formal dictionary to determine but COULD have one if you refer to various psychological and social ways people think. The addition of the way people spell and pronounce terms, for instance, is POLITICALLY motivated and can be inferred by how real terms do link. AND, when you look at the multiple ''coincidences" of how certain religious terms coincide with some interpretation (whether precise or not) they cannot have the degree of coincidence it would require to make up mere arbitrary sounds to define things.

Eymology accepted by ANY and ALL dictionaries are as equally imprecise because there is no actual formal record of the evolution directly. For any attempts of the past to even try to keep such records also tend to get destroyed by the next religion that dictates over the people as most in the past have done through politics.
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:34 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:15 pm Sorry, there are no logicians here.
EB
Frenchie, you are the one who insists on having a science of logic. A science to investigate "logic as objective performance and manifest capability of human beings".

If logic is, in fact, an "objective performance and manifest capability of human beings" then ALL humans are logicians.
Fallacious again. A logician is a person who works on a system of formal logic. Nobody does that here.
EB
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am "God" corresponds to "good" etymologically and was originally an emotional ADJECTIVE used to describe a religious interpretation about Nature.
[Old English god; related to Old Norse goth, Old High German got, Old Irish guth voice]
Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am Eymology accepted by ANY and ALL dictionaries are as equally imprecise because there is no actual formal record of the evolution directly.
You know what history is, don't you?
So, here is what etymology is:
etymology
study of the history of words
EB
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Speakpigeon wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:41 pm Fallacious again. A logician is a person who works on a system of formal logic. Nobody does that here.
Sounds like you have some anachronistic notion of "formal logic".

In 2020 they are more generally called formal systems; or formal languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Formal_logic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_language

I work on (and with) multiple such systems.
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:24 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:41 pm Fallacious again. A logician is a person who works on a system of formal logic. Nobody does that here.
Sounds like you have some anachronistic notion of "formal logic".
Sounds like you don't know what is formal logic:
formal logic - any logical system that abstracts the form of statements away from their content in order to establish abstract criteria of consistency and validity
How could that be "anachronistic"?
Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:24 am In 2020 they are more generally called formal systems; or formal languages.
"They"?!
Formal logic is formal logic is formal logic.
There is no "they", Sir.
Thank you for explaining.
So you don't like dictionaries but you think posting a link magically explains everything.
Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:24 am I work on (and with) multiple such systems.
Good for you! This explains why you are not a logician.
EB
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

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Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:19 am Sounds like you don't know what is formal logic:
formal logic - any logical system that abstracts the form of statements away from their content in order to establish abstract criteria of consistency and validity
How could that be "anachronistic"?
So FORMAL logic abstracts away the FORM? It sure sounds like you are confused.

Also, you are establishing criteria? That sure sounds exactly like the problem of criterion in epistemology.

Are you doing epistemology or logic?
Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:19 am "They"?!
Formal logic is formal logic is formal logic.
There is no "they", Sir.
It sure seems like you are prescribing Aristotle's identity axiom. That's a form of special pleading.

There are formal logics which accept that axiom.
There are formal logics which reject that axiom.

Why are you discriminating against formal logics which reject it?
Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:24 am Thank you for explaining.
So you don't like dictionaries but you think posting a link magically explains everything.
DIctionaries use words to explain other words.

I am using vast quantities of human bodies of knowledge to substantiate the notion of a "formal system".

No, links don't "magically" explain anything. Reading and comprehending the content leads to understanding what a "FORMAL system" is.
Skepdick wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:24 am Good for you! This explains why you are not a logician.
Uhhh. By your criterion it does.
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Re: Beyond the Law of Noncontradiction

Post by Scott Mayers »

Speakpigeon wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am "God" corresponds to "good" etymologically and was originally an emotional ADJECTIVE used to describe a religious interpretation about Nature.
[Old English god; related to Old Norse goth, Old High German got, Old Irish guth voice]
Scott Mayers wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am Eymology accepted by ANY and ALL dictionaries are as equally imprecise because there is no actual formal record of the evolution directly.
You know what history is, don't you?
So, here is what etymology is:
etymology
study of the history of words
EB
The English version comes from the German word for a drinking vessel from some source I read once. But note that the type of vessel was a celebrity wine vessel that 'annointed', a representation of ostentation being wasted by pouring over the head of one deemed superior....and thus, the ideal of whatever was 'good' when initially used as an adjective. The term God, then derived of this as an adjective of YHWY (Ye ovah = the egg == the source of life, another generic description versus a proper name invented out of thin air).

Note the following 'coincidences': Eden (Eastern rise of the sun), Aten (the noon sun and its perfect representation of 'a thing' for its most perfect circular shape), Atum (for the sun's FALL == Autumn), and then, finally, Adam (for the ground beneath your feet). Various changes of spellings have evolved of the form, ()t()n, ()d()n, ()t()m, ()d()m It appears that the consonants that end in 'n' are also "omens" of good things, where those with 'm' endings as "amens" [And thus roots that define AmenRa (the reflected light of the sky as in the "moon" and our source for that word too), AtenRa is Egyptian reference of the source of light, the sun. Note that the Norse god happens to be Oden, a derivative of the same roots also which suggest there is a link of Egyptians to the English roots as well.

"Eve" is a term that closely relates to 'et cetera' or (and so on). This is our source for Ever, even (versus Odd[en]). The 'v' is interchanged to 'f' in some cultures and so we get 'af-' or 'eff' as similar relatives.

"Soloman" is actually "Solo man", for the first one, or first light, and why 'solar' is a reference to the sun as "sol ra"

"David" is our "divide" which represents a division both literal division (1) of the Dead Sea divide in the land or the Sinai peninsula that devides Africa from the rest of the world, and/or (2) division of Judah from Israel.

"Israel", the suppose renaming of "Jacob", which means "He who sees him/it" (Ish-/ash, Ra, el) and retitled from "one who walks and/or tripped" (Ja - cob ....I cobble)

Abram to Abraham, are "Abba ra-om" and "Abba ra ohem" for "father of one" to "Father of many"

I can go on and on.

The supposed "ark" is remant of the very boats and/or amphibious sleds. The cerimonial ones buried at the pyramids, which carried broken obelisks of AkenAten's (another Egyptian that intentionally gets respelt and repronounced so as to evade detection of meaning as "a kin to Aten" (Similation to the perfect circle of the sun.) The 'ark' was used to carry the remnant obelisks from what was AkenAten's place in the desert he was forced to move to for a generation (40 years) before the reign ended and passed from Aten, a single sourced belief about the sun as origin, to the multicultural society. The Ark (of the Covenent) is the general commands set down by him and why you will never find it by looking for a mere box! (the intentional re-defining of this which happens to coincide also with the Egyptian's cerimonial box we found in AkenAten's son, Tut-ank-amen.

"Jesus" is "I am" and where the French get the phrase, "je suis". The 'j' is an accident of the Greeks who had used the hook of an 'i' to indicate the beginning of official debt records, like checks where we now place lines on both sides to evade fraud. The pronounciation changes from the Armenian (Ye) sound to the Greek (Je), both meaning the personal "I" or "the" in different contexts.
The "sus" is, in Greek, "Zeus", who represented the new era of Gods after the Titans, just as Jesus was the rebirth of God.

....
I have a book worth on this and may even publish it one day. But the point should be clear: there is sincere links of the religious origins to be SECULAR stories. So the initial Adam and Eve one, for instance, regarded a universal expression of the then many cultures combining into settled life about a pre-scientific understanding (thus far) of what the peoples generally agreed to. Adam is also where we get the Atom in later Greek, the varied terms likely was something like our "solid" and thus the relation to the sun's positions again.

Egypt was the actual 'promised land' but was diverted to Palestine because AkenAten was kicked out. The tendency to blur this led to quoting Ramses (Ra- Moses), which is another link to the very Moses of the bible.
...

Still doubt me?
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