Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:40 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:35 pm
I may have stopped writing computer programs over a decade ago and don't remember that much, but this is just sad :lol:
You probably weren't very good at it if you self-identify as a Classical Logician/Aristotelian.

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henry quirk
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"you need to assign a unique identifier to each unique element."

Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:45 pm

*I am right!

Again: where's my goddamned Nobel Prize!

#

"Good to meet you Henry12341"

'I am not a number! I am a free man!'








*actually, I don't know that I am...again: it's just seems to be a language/placeholder problem...right or not (in a logician's way) if I were lookin' to avoid false equivalencies I go for outlandish, freakishly long 'indentfiers'.

Atla
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:40 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:35 pm
I may have stopped writing computer programs over a decade ago and don't remember that much, but this is just sad :lol:
You probably weren't very good at it if you self-identify as a Classical Logician/Aristotelian.
So what's this great relevation that you had? :D

Are you confused by the fact that there are two character strings, made of different particles located elsewhere in spacetime, and yet we get a "true" value? :lol:

Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:47 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:45 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:40 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:35 pm
I may have stopped writing computer programs over a decade ago and don't remember that much, but this is just sad :lol:
You probably weren't very good at it if you self-identify as a Classical Logician/Aristotelian.
So what's this great relevation that you had? :D

Are you confused by the fact that there are two character strings, made of different particles located elsewhere in spacetime, and yet we get a "true" value? :lol:
Sure. What's your point?

My point is that the law of identity is an error. And without it Classical Logic is dead too.

If 1 = 1 is true. Then Jane = Jane is true. Different Jane but hey...

Your brain will probably just context-switch here so it can protect your religion.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:57 pm

"If 1 = 1 is true. Then Jane = Jane is true. Different Jane but hey..."

And there's the problem: Jane to the left of me has a face like a foot, and Jane to the right of me can melt your heart with a glance. The placeholders are off-kilter 'logically' (but just fine in the 'real world' cuz I can see clearly the two Janes ain't the same).

So, mebbe Logik's point is 'pull your head from your keister and look around'.

If so: that ain't half-bad advice.

Atla
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:47 pm
Sure. What's your point?

My point is that the law of identity is an error. And without it Classical Logic is dead too.

If 1 = 1 is true. Then Jane = Jane is true. Different Jane but hey...

Your brain will probably just context-switch here so it can protect your religion.
LOL

The computer compares the two strings. A true value doesn't mean that they are literally one and the same, it only says that their makeup is identical.

Kinda like how two protons have different locations in spacetime, yet their makeup is identical. Your computer program is merely a bigger more complicated version of this.

Of course the above does not violate the law of identity, only someone who is clueless about computers, would think that.

When will you realize that you are the fool here with an information religion :)

Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:29 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
LOL

The computer compares the two strings. A true value doesn't mean that they are literally one and the same, it only says that their makeup is identical.
No shit, Sherlock.

Logic doesn't deal with literals. All logic deals with symbolic representations. Abstraction.

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
Kinda like how two protons have different locations in spacetime, yet their makeup is identical. Your computer program is merely a more complicated version of this.
Hear yourself speak! TWO protons. TWO locations.
TWO Janes. TWO locations.

The TWO protons have identical charges.
Like the TWO Janes may have identical eye color.
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
Of course the above does not violate the law of identity, only someone who is clueless about computers, would think that.
Sounds like cognitive dissonance is taking hold. Quick! Context-switch!
Last edited by Logik on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Speakpigeon » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:31 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:12 pm
Premise 1. John is human ( A = C )
Premise 2. Jane is human ( B = C )
By the transitive property: John is Jane (A = B)
"John is human" isn't normally interpreted as John = human, as I guess is suggested by "( A = C )".
In Aristotelian terms, the argument should read:
Premise 1. John is human;
Premise 2. Jane is human;
Therefore, John is Jane.
And then, it's not valid as there is an undistributed middle.
Now, if we interpret the argument as follows:
Premise 1. John = human;
Premise 2. Jane = human;
Therefore, John = Jane.
Provided you define "=" properly, then, sure, it's valid.
Different arguments, though.
What's the problem already?
EB
Last edited by Speakpigeon on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:32 pm

Logik wrote:That's the problem. You can't. ...
Why is it a problem?
"John is human" and "John is Jane" are both grammatically correct even though unsound.

But if you are translating John is human to human(John), why aren't you translating "John is Jane" as Jane(John).
Depends how you wish to interpret proper names I guess. If you want to make them predicates and want 'Jane is John' as a fact then you'd add;

John(Jane) <-> Jane(John).

Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:35 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:31 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:12 pm
Premise 1. John is human ( A = C )
Premise 2. Jane is human ( B = C )
By the transitive property: John is Jane (A = B)
"John is human" isn't normally interpreted as John = human, as I guess is suggested by "( A = C )".
In Aristotelian terms, the argument should read:
Premise 1. John is human;
Premise 2. Jane is human;
Therefore, John is Jane.
And then, it's not valid as there is an undistributed middle.
Now, if we interpret the argument as follows:
Premise 1. John = human;
Premise 2. Jane = human;
Therefore, John = Jane.
Provided you define "=" properly, then, sure, it's valid.
Different arguments, though.
What's the problem already?
EB
The problem is that you accept John is human (A = C => True) and Jane is human (B = C => True). Then you also have to accept the PROPOSITION (NOT conclusion)

A = B => True.

John is Jane.

Transitivity.
Last edited by Logik on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atla
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:36 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:29 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
LOL

The computer compares the two strings. A true value doesn't mean that they are literally one and the same, it only says that their makeup is identical.
No shit, Sherlock.

Logic doesn't deal with literals. All logic deals with symbolic representations. Abstraction.

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
Kinda like how two protons have different locations in spacetime, yet their makeup is identical. Your computer program is merely a more complicated version of this.
Hear yourself speak! TWO protons. TWO locations.
TWO Janes. TWO locations.

The TWO protons have identical charges.
Like the TWO Janes may have identical eye color.
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:26 pm
Of course the above does not violate the law of identity, only someone who is clueless about computers, would think that.
Sounds like cognitive dissonance is taking hold. Quick! Context-switch!
That's because elementary particles are all alike, not because the law of identity is broken.

Idiot much?

Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:37 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:36 pm
That's because elementary particles are all alike, not because the law of identity is broken.

Idiot much?
ALIKE. and IDENTICAL mean different things.

Idiot much?

Atla
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:37 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:36 pm
That's because elementary particles are all alike, not because the law of identity is broken.

Idiot much?
ALIKE. and IDENTICAL mean different things.

Idiot much?
So tell me where is the law of identity broken then?

You do realize that computers are built from particles, not abstractions, yes?

Logik
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:41 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm
So tell me where is the law of identity broken then?
It lacks the semantics to express a unique identifier.

Jane = Jane => True

Different Jane.
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm
You do realize that computers are built from particles, not abstractions, yes?
Forget the computers.

Adhere to the grammar/syntax/semantics of your logic consistently!
Last edited by Logik on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atla
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Re: Let me convince you that none of you are Classical logicians!

Post by Atla » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:46 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:41 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm
So tell me where is the law of identity broken then?
It lacks the semantics to express a unique identifier.

Jane = Jane => True

Different Jane.
Atla wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:40 pm
You do realize that computers are built from particles, not abstractions, yes?
Forget the computers.

Adhere to the grammar/syntax/semantics of your logic.

What computers do is wrap you over the knuckless when you break the rules of the language.

You are used to getting away with errors.
Again: where is the law of identity broken?

A computer is comparing two 'Jane' character strings, and finds that they are alike similarly to how to protons are alike, and gives a true answer.

So?

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