(LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

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Speakpigeon
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(LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Speakpigeon »

How would you formalise the following logical argument?
For all we know, the A of a B may be the state of a C inside the D of B;
We know that what a B does is determined by the state of a C inside the D of B
Therefore, for all we know, what a B does may be determined by the A of B.
Each of the letters A, B, C and D stands potentially for any conceivable thing, such as atoms, space, cows, pain, God, fairies etc.
Each of the letters A, B, C and D stands for the same thing throughout the argument.
Please note that the vocabulary, such as "what", "state", "does", "determine", is to be understood according to English dictionaries.
Articles such "a", "the", or indeed the absence of an article, are to be understood according to English grammar.
The verb "may" is to be understood according to the following definition:
May (modal verb)
You use may to indicate that there is a possibility that something is true, but you cannot be certain.
Examples: (a) According to the police, there may be other victims. (b) Some scientists believe there may be trees that are purple or yellow
This is not a thread on the validity of this argument, but your formalisation should obviously reflect whether according to you the argument is valid or not.
Here are a few of the symbols you may want to use:
¬ negation -- → implication -- ↔ equivalence -- ∧ conjunction -- ∨ disjunction -- ⊻ exclusive disjunction -- ⊢ inference -- ≡ identity -- ∈ membership -- ∉ negation of membership -- ∀ all x -- ∃ there is at least one x -- ∄ there is no x -- ∩ intersection -- ∅ empty set --
And, obviously, there may be a Nobel Prize for the correct formalisation.
EB
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Like him or not ... This looks like a job for mister Logik tbh.

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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Logik »

You want to formalize it so that we don’t end up arguing over grammar/semantics?

Use a regular language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language

Otherwise this will end up as yet another philosophical wankfest.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:56 am How would you formalise the following logical argument?
For all we know, the A of a B may be the state of a C inside the D of B;
We know that what a B does is determined by the state of a C inside the D of B
Therefore, for all we know, what a B does may be determined by the A of B.
Each of the letters A, B, C and D stands potentially for any conceivable thing, such as atoms, space, cows, pain, God, fairies etc.
Each of the letters A, B, C and D stands for the same thing throughout the argument.
Please note that the vocabulary, such as "what", "state", "does", "determine", is to be understood according to English dictionaries.
Articles such "a", "the", or indeed the absence of an article, are to be understood according to English grammar.
The verb "may" is to be understood according to the following definition:
May (modal verb)
You use may to indicate that there is a possibility that something is true, but you cannot be certain.
Examples: (a) According to the police, there may be other victims. (b) Some scientists believe there may be trees that are purple or yellow
This is not a thread on the validity of this argument, but your formalisation should obviously reflect whether according to you the argument is valid or not.
Here are a few of the symbols you may want to use:
¬ negation -- → implication -- ↔ equivalence -- ∧ conjunction -- ∨ disjunction -- ⊻ exclusive disjunction -- ⊢ inference -- ≡ identity -- ∈ membership -- ∉ negation of membership -- ∀ all x -- ∃ there is at least one x -- ∄ there is no x -- ∩ intersection -- ∅ empty set --
And, obviously, there may be a Nobel Prize for the correct formalisation.
EB
****Must be edited further

Actually if you want to reformalize it, the symbols will have to be reformalized as well, the only common nature we find in logic is premised but it antithetical munchausen trillema which by default necessitates all axioms as points of origin, all definition as directional and all identity as circular.

Thus intutionistic logic can be synthesized with a more aristotelian type of logic, monadic predicate calculus, where these logics are a gradation of it and exists as an approximation not complete on it's own terms.

The problem of logic/math, and all symbolism lies in a contradiction between form and function, the noun and verb fundamentally, where we are left with an alternation between the two resulting in a form of "atomism" where there are multiple types of atomic facts which necessitates a further from of atomism where one type of atom leads to another type with "type" resulting in a tautology leading to a self referencing "atomism" where the atom takes on a nature of the "whole".

Thus, through the inherent atomic nature of one atomic fact being both composed of and composing atomic facts, a "set theory" type of math/logic is integrated into this symbolism.

This dualism between active/passive is solved by a synthesis between the active/passive resulting in the "symbol" as quite literally a point of observation, both projective and circular in nature, to exist as perpetual "meaning through meaning as meaning" where all symbolism as both active and passive exist through a continual recursion with thus continual recursion as "symbolic" in nature and hence containing a simultaneous active/passive nature which is self maintained through the symbols themselves.

Thus the atomic fact exists as symmetrical to the wholism perspective and "being", which in English vocabulary can take a passive and active nature, is proof itself.

1. A,B,C,D are all axioms and as axioms are points of origin and hence unproven:

Ex: A•B•C•D•

2. All axioms are defined by there direction to other axioms, and as such exist as an axiom and point of origin:

Ex: (A• -> B• -> C• -> D•)•

(Insert various combinations)

3. All axioms that exist as a modal state effectively can cycle with axioms that do not exist in a modal state considering the modality defines the none modal and the modal exists through the non modal. For example green describes the tree, and tree describes the green, hence tree green and green tree are connected as one entity and variate in order dependent upon the language.

Ex: (A•○B•)•
Ex: ((A•○B•)• -> C• -> D•)•

(Insert various combinations)

4. Negation is a definition in an axiom and exists as both a statement of relation and gradation. For example "not blue" observes the variables of "not blue" as the answer within the given context.
Considering "blue" is is an axiom, and "not blue" is a negation of this axiom, this negation exists where the axiom exists as a point of inversion from one axiom of "blue" to the many axioms of "not blue" with even just "red", as an answer showing the divergence of blue into red by observing "not blue".

Ex: B¤

This applies to statements as well in the hegelian sense of antithetical:

Ex: (A• -> B• -> C•)¤

5. Implication, where the answer is probable, necessitates the axiom as the actual state amidst potentially other states. This actualized state is a multiplicitious form, due to is gradient nature, of a potential unity:

Ex. (•/B••)•

6. Equivalence observes each phenomena effectively as directed towards each other. Such as 4=2+2 and 2+2=4. Equivalence also shows a simulateous disconnect of the phenomena as what is equivalent is by necessitating fundamentally separate.

Ex: (A• <->•<-> B•)•


7. Conjunction, where both axioms effectively are directed towards eachother and unify into a new axiom through "and" , "both", etc.:

Example (A and B exist at both ends of angle on left side) :
((A•B•)> •)•

8. Disjustion, where both axioms effectively separate from a prior unity do to "either", "or", etc. which observes a prior state of unity amidst the axioms until some choice comes along and separate them.

Example (inversion of conjuction):
(• <(A•B•))•

9. Infer is same as imply and can be considered an inefficient use of language.

10. Identity can be observed as same as equality and can be considered an inefficient use of language.

11. Membership where one axiom exists as a particulate/part of another axiom which is more generalized, with this generality observing a potential state of unity and the axiom as a part effectively acting as an extension that exists in an actualized state can be observed as a fraction.

Ex:
(A•/B••)•

12: Negation of membership where the axiom is not longer a particulate of that general axiom:
(A•/B•¤)•

13: "All x" necessitates the axiom as both a general and particular state:
(A•/A••)•

14: There is at least one B observe x existing as a part of the general A and can observe a form of implied set. Hence A is both a general and particular. At least 1 observes the particular, as part of an implied set as both a general and particular state.

((•/••)/(B•/B••))•

15. There is no axiom still observes a deficiency of that axiom and can be observed as a negation in accords with point 4.

16. Intersection observes the axioms converge and diverge:

Ex: ((A•B•)>•<(A•B•))•

17. Empty set can be observed as no axiom or negation of that axiom.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Speakpigeon »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm ****Must be edited further (...) Empty set can be observed as no axiom or negation of that axiom.
Derail.
EB
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Logik »

Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:27 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm ****Must be edited further (...) Empty set can be observed as no axiom or negation of that axiom.
Derail.
EB
I didn’t see any rails. I saw an open-ended request.

Equfinality fucks the sophist.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:27 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm ****Must be edited further (...) Empty set can be observed as no axiom or negation of that axiom.
Derail.
EB
Not really, as in providing a new system the symbols that determine that system are subject to change.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Speakpigeon »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:15 pm Not really, as in providing a new system the symbols that determine that system are subject to change.
Derail again.
EB
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:37 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:15 pm Not really, as in providing a new system the symbols that determine that system are subject to change.
Derail again.
EB
Actually the question is how would you "formalize"?
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Speakpigeon »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:28 pm Actually the question is how would you "formalize"?
Actually, no, on the face of it this thread's question is not how I would myself formalise.
I'm asking here in case people know.
You're unable to do it, that's fine.
Although, as to me, I think the way to formalise to be able to assess validity is pretty obvious.
EB
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Logik »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:35 pm Actually, no, on the face of it this thread's question is not how I would myself formalise.
I'm asking here in case people know.
You're unable to do it, that's fine.
Although, as to me, I think the way to formalise to be able to assess validity is pretty obvious.
EB
So you expect others to help you translate your thoughts into formal logic for you?

That's ironic. The classic logician cannot express himself. What's the matter? Semantics and grammar getting in your way?
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:35 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:28 pm Actually the question is how would you "formalize"?
Actually, no, on the face of it this thread's question is not how I would myself formalise.
I'm asking here in case people know.
You're unable to do it, that's fine.
Although, as to me, I think the way to formalise to be able to assess validity is pretty obvious.
EB
You began with "I Think"; hence your premises are already subjective and relativisitic and formal only in regards to an inherent self-agreement. You are confusing a form of "objectivity" as "group agreement" with internal aspects of a divided psyche inherent within your self acting in "agreement".

What you say as "obvious" necessitates "formalization" as a projection of group interpretation; thus necessitating a form of "elitism" where any system of logic effectively diverges from a common sense approach of the human condition by default leading to an inherent contradiction in one respect while necessitating an intellectual form of "nazism".

You ask these questions in case people "know"...but what do they know really but a series of mirroring interpretations? This is constant. I can say "x" and people will view it in 30 different ways and the subjective state fundamentally equates to a "whirlwind" of objective chaos.

Any structure, such as a "chair", is subject to infinite variations as an extension of the observer.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 1. A,B,C,D are all axioms and as axioms are points of origin and hence unproven:
A = "Something"
B = []
C = 7.31
D = 5
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm Ex: A•B•C•D•
Vague. Fails to define the semantics of •.
A•B translates to "Something" • []. What does that mean?

C•D translates to 7.31 • 5. What does that mean?

A•B•C•D is Something•[]•7.31•5. What does that mean?

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 2. All axioms are defined by there direction to other axioms, and as such exist as an axiom and point of origin:

Ex: (A• -> B• -> C• -> D•)•

(Insert various combinations)
Vague grammar and syntax. Fails to define the semantics ->

(Something• -> []• ->7.31• ->5•)•

Incoherent nonsense.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 4. Negation is a definition in an axiom and exists as both a statement of relation and gradation. For example "not blue" observes the variables of "not blue" as the answer within the given context.
Considering "blue" is is an axiom, and "not blue" is a negation of this axiom, this negation exists where the axiom exists as a point of inversion from one axiom of "blue" to the many axioms of "not blue" with even just "red", as an answer showing the divergence of blue into red by observing "not blue".

Ex: B¤

This applies to statements as well in the hegelian sense of antithetical:
Meaningless. Fails to define the effect the operation ¤ has on B.
In context of B = [] what does B¤ mean?

[]¤ ? What's that?

On and on will go the metaphysician failing to recognise that the problem lies in both definition AND interpretation of symbols.
If you don't address both problems at the same time (e.g having a language which can interpret itself) you haven't really solved anything.
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Logik wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:14 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 1. A,B,C,D are all axioms and as axioms are points of origin and hence unproven:
A = "Something"
B = []
C = 7.31
D = 5

Actually using the above variables with the above logical connectors results in non-sense. Prove to me, using those variable you selected, a logical statement.



Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm Ex: A•B•C•D•
Vague. Fails to define the semantics of •.
A•B translates to "Something" • []. What does that mean?

C•D translates to 7.31 • 5. What does that mean?

A•B•C•D is Something•[]•7.31•5. What does that mean?




A• = "Something"•
B• = []•
C• = 7.31•
D• = 5•

What it means is that this list above observes each axiom as a point of origin, but it is unproven.

First rule of Munchausseen Trillema


Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 2. All axioms are defined by there direction to other axioms, and as such exist as an axiom and point of origin:

Ex: (A• -> B• -> C• -> D•)•

(Insert various combinations)
Vague grammar and syntax. Fails to define the semantics ->

(Something• -> []• ->7.31• ->5•)•

Incoherent nonsense.

Actually is observed that one axiom effectively progresses to another. That is all.

Something progresses to the bracket symbols which progress to the corresponding numbers.

This can be observed as:

1 progressing to + progressing to 2 progressing to equal progressing to 3.

One axiom is defined through its progression to another.




Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 4. Negation is a definition in an axiom and exists as both a statement of relation and gradation. For example "not blue" observes the variables of "not blue" as the answer within the given context.
Considering "blue" is is an axiom, and "not blue" is a negation of this axiom, this negation exists where the axiom exists as a point of inversion from one axiom of "blue" to the many axioms of "not blue" with even just "red", as an answer showing the divergence of blue into red by observing "not blue".

Ex: B¤

This applies to statements as well in the hegelian sense of antithetical:
Meaningless. Fails to define the effect the operation ¤ has on B.
In context of B = [] what does B¤ mean?

[]¤ ? What's that?



I just said it is a negation symbol.

What is this? ¬ []

No serious the problem quite literally is in the symbolism, the framework itself is the problem and it is made up. An negation of an axiom effectively observes the axiom not self-evident anymore, but this negation is self-evident; hence where




On and on will go the metaphysician failing to recognise that the problem lies in both definition AND interpretation of symbols.
If you don't address both problems at the same time (e.g having a language which can interpret itself) you haven't really solved anything.

ROFL!!!!

You are a fucking idiot, I mean you really are. I will even break it down and explain why to you:

How many threads and posts have I argued that the root foundation of logic stems from the Munchhausen Trilemma and its inversion as the Prime Triad? If I am arguing that the origin of all phenomenon, hence symbols, are grounded in a basic point/line/circle then by default if "logic" is to have a strict rational base its symbolism must correspond to its foundations?

The symbolism that is the foundation for logic is a system of metaphysics in itself...and these symbols as variations of other symbols effectively must go to root symbols. The issue with the foundations of logic is not just one of symbolism, but the inherent system of metaphysics that determines this symbolism.

So I take each of the symbols, and there "definitions" which effectively are still subject to the munchausseen trillema, and translate them to symbols grounded into the munchauseen trillema and the Prime Triad.

If everything is directed movement rooted in a basic point/line/circle, then by default logic must be grounded in basic geometric symbolism
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Re: (LOGIC) Formalisation of a modal argument

Post by Logik »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm Actually using the above variables with the above logical connectors results in non-sense. Prove to me, using those variable you selected, a logical statement.
Prove to YOU?

You do understand that "proof" is only possible within a strictly defined deductive system, right?
You do understand that "proof" means "consistent from a set of axioms, right?

So if you want me to "prove" anything - you need to define the grammar, syntax and semantics of the language in which you EXPECT proofs to be provided in.

The expressions above are consistent with Lambda calculus.
It is syntactically and semantically valid in the grammar of Python.
Therefore it is a logical expression.

If you have some other criterion for a "logical statement" - define your criterion.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm What it means is that this list above observes each axiom as a point of origin, but it is unproven.
Of course it's unproven. You don't "prove" axioms. You accept axioms.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm First rule of Munchausseen Trillema
I have no idea how the trillema applies to 1=1. You either accept or reject it.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm 2. All axioms are defined by there direction to other axioms, and as such exist as an axiom and point of origin
Meaningless incoherent nonsense.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm One axiom is defined through its progression to another.
Yes. That's how deduction works.

You still need to state the transformation how axiom A becomes axiom B.
Unless you define your degrees of freedom/transformation - any axiom can progress to any other axiom. How?

Infinite progressions to infinite axioms leads to infinite meaning. That's not very useful.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm I just said it is a negation symbol.
How does negation work on non-booleans? How does negation work on integers?
How does negation work on sets?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm No serious the problem quite literally is in the symbolism, the framework itself is the problem and it is made up. An negation of an axiom effectively observes the axiom not self-evident anymore, but this negation is self-evident; hence where
Quite literaly the symbol-grounding problem. It can mean nothing and everything.


Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm How many threads and posts have I argued that the root foundation of logic stems from the Munchhausen Trilemma and its inversion as the Prime Triad? If I am arguing that the origin of all phenomenon, hence symbols, are grounded in a basic point/line/circle then by default if "logic" is to have a strict rational base its symbolism must correspond to its foundations?
Rationality applies to action, not thought - so I have no idea what point you are making.

Least you have to explain to us what the distinction between "rational" and "irrational" thought.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm The symbolism that is the foundation for logic is a system of metaphysics in itself...and these symbols as variations of other symbols effectively must go to root symbols. The issue with the foundations of logic is not just one of symbolism, but the inherent system of metaphysics that determines this symbolism.

So I take each of the symbols, and there "definitions" which effectively are still subject to the munchausseen trillema, and translate them to symbols grounded into the munchauseen trillema and the Prime Triad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_grounding_problem
Yes. Metaphysics is logic.
Yes. There are many logics to choose from

How do you decide which one is "right"?

No idea what "root symbols" are. Why is the Prime Triad immune to the Munchhausen Trillema?

But more importantly: what can the Prime Triad do that other symbol-manipulation logics can't?

Is the prime triad consistent and complete? And if it isn’t - why should we care for it?

As you say ... we don’t care for what you are selling.
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