Logical thinking requires Intuition

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Systematic
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Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Systematic » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:59 am

I realize that I have made a counterintuitive statement as the title of this topic. But it makes perfect sense. Give me a moment to explain.

Logic, by its nature is eliminative, but intuition gives plenty of thought options. So let's say that, like Socrates, we know that we do not know anything. So it makes no sense at the outset, to start with logic--limiting the number of options. It makes sense instead to use our intuition to make many connections, many possible answers to that question that we do not know. Only after we have gone to the proverbial drawing board to maximize the possible answers, does it make sense to cull out the fallacies. To try to prove with logic or disprove as each case demands.

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HexHammer
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by HexHammer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:20 am

There are 2 types of logic, math and reasoning based.

People that do math based usually have non existing reasoning skills even tho their IQ is sky high and makes "Goldberg Contraptions" since they lack ability to critical think too.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 pm

Systematic wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:59 am
I realize that I have made a counterintuitive statement as the title of this topic. But it makes perfect sense. Give me a moment to explain.

Logic, by its nature is eliminative, but intuition gives plenty of thought options. So let's say that, like Socrates, we know that we do not know anything. So it makes no sense at the outset, to start with logic--limiting the number of options. It makes sense instead to use our intuition to make many connections, many possible answers to that question that we do not know. Only after we have gone to the proverbial drawing board to maximize the possible answers, does it make sense to cull out the fallacies. To try to prove with logic or disprove as each case demands.
Intuitively speaking fallacies are fallacious, and it can be proven so the foundations of logic can be put to question.

I learned over the years it is best to use both. Where logic fails use intuition. When intuition fails use logic. Alternate between the two until they both expand into one.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:21 pm

You are on the money: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_logic

Constructive logic is mathematical logic. Proof theory. Type theory. Programming languages. Curry-Howard isomorphism.

The reason is simple: the correspondence theory of truth is a trap. The world doesn’t need to correspond to our language; our language needs to correspond to the world.

And the world is complex. So you need a complex and flexible language (models!) to represent it.

High order logics ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_logic )

Your brain allows you to construct/simulate/test hypotheses really cheaply! Nature’s very own Monter Carlo simulator.

The down side is that we then try to communicate these ideas in first order (classical logic) and naturally nuance and detail is lost in this encoding. Our spoken languages suck!

Belinda
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Belinda » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm

TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?

TimeSeeker
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm
TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?
Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...

Belinda
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Belinda » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:02 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm
TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?
Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...
Poetry does more than provide for self expression. It also communicates feelings of morals and aesthetics both of which are necessary to human lives in their social aspects. Clear and precise instructions like the example you gave are needed for immediacy of action without deliberations. As you say, it depends upon criteria.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:12 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:02 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm
TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?
Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...
Poetry does more than provide for self expression. It also communicates feelings of morals and aesthetics both of which are necessary to human lives in their social aspects. Clear and precise instructions like the example you gave are needed for immediacy of action without deliberations. As you say, it depends upon criteria.
I am not sure poets write poetry for others...
It is a very selfish endeavour in that it is about self-expression. But - I could be wrong in speaking on behalf of all poets.

Similarly. Reading poetry is driven by whatever desire drives one to do so.

I see it as self-expression without any rules or limits. I like readin poetry in parallel to history so that I can get the “objective” and “subjective” account of an era.

Age
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Age » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm
TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?
Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...

The very reason 'soldiers'' exist is because, when "others" cause and create wars, 'soldiers' are necessary and USED so that "people" WILL die.

No matter what word is used or not, whey action is commenced, "people" DIE. The very reason for wars is so that "people" will kill "people" DEAD.

"People" NEED to EXECUTE "other people" otherwise it would not be war. It would instead just be a fight.

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Age » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:03 pm

Systematic wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:59 am
I realize that I have made a counterintuitive statement as the title of this topic. But it makes perfect sense. Give me a moment to explain.

Logic, by its nature is eliminative, but intuition gives plenty of thought options. So let's say that, like Socrates, we know that we do not know anything.
The thing is we always do KNOW one thing. That is; My, or our, THOUGHTS.

If the thought is true, right, and or correct we do NOT know. Any and EVERY thought could be WRONG. We just do NOT know.

The thought itself could just be an illusion, so what the thought is actually, we do NOT know.

But when we can stand-back from the thought, itself, instead of living within it, and seeing from it, then we can KNOW our thoughts.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am

Age wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm
Belinda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:53 pm
TimeSeeker, do you mean that poetry is a better communication medium than elaborated code?
Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...

The very reason 'soldiers'' exist is because, when "others" cause and create wars, 'soldiers' are necessary and USED so that "people" WILL die.

No matter what word is used or not, whey action is commenced, "people" DIE. The very reason for wars is so that "people" will kill "people" DEAD.

"People" NEED to EXECUTE "other people" otherwise it would not be war. It would instead just be a fight.
Police officers do the same.

Do you want to do away with them also?

Age
Posts: 3231
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Age » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:10 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:54 pm


Depends on your success criteria and context.

If you just want to express yourself for its own sake - poetry is great.

If human lives depended on it, you don’t want ANY interpretation/ambiguity. You want clarity, conciseness and precision! So, don’t use poetry ;)

For example, soldiers use the word “EXECUTE” instead of the word “GO!” When they commence action. The reason is because “GO” is phonetically similar to “NO” and causes confusion and people die...

The very reason 'soldiers'' exist is because, when "others" cause and create wars, 'soldiers' are necessary and USED so that "people" WILL die.

No matter what word is used or not, whey action is commenced, "people" DIE. The very reason for wars is so that "people" will kill "people" DEAD.

"People" NEED to EXECUTE "other people" otherwise it would not be war. It would instead just be a fight.
Police officers do the same.
So what?

We WERE discussing "soldiers" since you brought them up.
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am
Do you want to do away with them also?
Well, in reality, they certainly are NOT needed.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:37 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:10 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am
Age wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:57 pm



The very reason 'soldiers'' exist is because, when "others" cause and create wars, 'soldiers' are necessary and USED so that "people" WILL die.

No matter what word is used or not, whey action is commenced, "people" DIE. The very reason for wars is so that "people" will kill "people" DEAD.

"People" NEED to EXECUTE "other people" otherwise it would not be war. It would instead just be a fight.
Police officers do the same.
So what?

We WERE discussing "soldiers" since you brought them up.
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am
Do you want to do away with them also?
Well, in reality, they certainly are NOT needed.
And doctors? Do we NOT need those also?

Age
Posts: 3231
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by Age » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:52 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:37 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:10 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am


Police officers do the same.
So what?

We WERE discussing "soldiers" since you brought them up.
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:55 am
Do you want to do away with them also?
Well, in reality, they certainly are NOT needed.
And doctors? Do we NOT need those also?
Doctors are NEEDED. In order to heal ALL those injured human beings. caused from all the warring that you human beings seem to love to do continually.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Logical thinking requires Intuition

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:59 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:52 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:37 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:10 pm


So what?

We WERE discussing "soldiers" since you brought them up.



Well, in reality, they certainly are NOT needed.
And doctors? Do we NOT need those also?
Doctors are NEEDED. In order to heal ALL those injured human beings. caused from all the warring that you human beings seem to love to do continually.
But there hasn’t been a major war in Europe or USA for a long time. So what are a those doctors for then?

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