Math and reality

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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QuantumT
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Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:24 pm

When it comes to the true nature of reality, we mostly seek the answer in religion or philosophy. But what does math have to say about it?

Here's a lecture by Dr. Ron Garret about that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc (1:03:42)

His conclusion made people walk out.
It makes me wonder: Are people ready for the truth, if the truth is different from what they expected?
Does the truth matter at all, if people reject it?

Disclaimer: Please do NOT pay attention to the uploaders description! That description is made solely for the purpose of building hype and getting attention, and does not reflect the content!
Last edited by QuantumT on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 pm

I clicked the link, saw that the video was an hour long, and closed the window. You need to be more helpful to readers and respect their time if you hope to have an audience.

I checked the video comments and found that the speaker's conclusion is that we live in a simulation. One hopes that they are not positing reality to consist purely of simulations all the way down - with no initial actual state on which to base the simulations.

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QuantumT
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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:46 pm

Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 pm
I clicked the link, saw that the video was an hour long, and closed the window. You need to be more helpful to readers and respect their time if you hope to have an audience.

I checked the video comments and found that the speaker's conclusion is that we live in a simulation. One hopes that they are not positing reality to consist purely of simulations all the way down - with no initial actual state on which to base the simulations.
Thank you for bringing the duration to my attention.

The conclusion is that we either live in a multiverse or a zeroverse, and that the math points more towards a zeroverse.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:23 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:46 pm
Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 pm
I clicked the link, saw that the video was an hour long, and closed the window. You need to be more helpful to readers and respect their time if you hope to have an audience.

I checked the video comments and found that the speaker's conclusion is that we live in a simulation. One hopes that they are not positing reality to consist purely of simulations all the way down - with no initial actual state on which to base the simulations.
Thank you for bringing the duration to my attention.

The conclusion is that we either live in a multiverse or a zeroverse, and that the math points more towards a zeroverse.
I might need help with "zeroverse" as all I am finding on Google are links for Dragonball Z, software, quips and book lists.

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QuantumT
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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:42 pm

Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:23 pm
I might need help with "zeroverse" as all I am finding on Google are links for Dragonball Z, software, quips and book lists.
Zeroverse is just a clinical term to destinguish between 3 possible options (listed by popularity):

1: Universe. One single place. No other options.

2: Multiverse. Endless universes, either in the same place, or side by side.

3: Zeroverse. A virtual place. Still real, but not physical.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:55 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:42 pm
3: Zeroverse. A virtual place. Still real, but not physical.
I thought that was a fairly standard line of thought, given that most of reality is "empty space" and the sum total of all energy in the universe balances out to zero. It does seem that what our nervous systems experience is entirely relative, although there is still much to learn.

What is "solid"? From a rogue neutron star's perspective, any planet that it destroyed would seem like almost nothing, like moving through a region of thin fog at best.

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QuantumT
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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:06 am

Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:55 pm
I thought that was a fairly standard line of thought, given that most of reality is "empty space" and the sum total of all energy in the universe balances out to zero. It does seem that what our nervous systems experience is entirely relative, although there is still much to learn.

What is "solid"? From a rogue neutron star's perspective, any planet that it destroyed would seem like almost nothing, like moving through a region of thin fog at best.
I like the way you think! :wink:

What we consider solid is just energy resisting. Electrons refusing to make contact.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:32 am

QuantumT wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:06 am
Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:55 pm
I thought that was a fairly standard line of thought, given that most of reality is "empty space" and the sum total of all energy in the universe balances out to zero. It does seem that what our nervous systems experience is entirely relative, although there is still much to learn.

What is "solid"? From a rogue neutron star's perspective, any planet that it destroyed would seem like almost nothing, like moving through a region of thin fog at best.
I like the way you think! :wink:
Thanks! Logically, as research progresses and the results increasingly disseminated, you would expect rational people in possession of roughly the same information to come to fairly similar conclusions. That appears to be the case with us.
QuantumT wrote:What we consider solid is just energy resisting. Electrons refusing to make contact.
Unless coerced by extreme pressure. It is the resistance of the space within atoms that makes existence possible - otherwise we'd all just crash together.

Still, it appears that energy itself is an absolute, although this doesn't change the relative status of all things since there is nothing aside from energy with which to use as a reference. Space is still just energy like everything else, spread very thinly. "What is energy?" beyond the prosaic definition of "work", though, is an especially fundamental and difficult question. "The stuff in which everything can be relative" is not satisfying :)

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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 pm

Greta wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:32 am
Thanks! Logically, as research progresses and the results increasingly disseminated, you would expect rational people in possession of roughly the same information to come to fairly similar conclusions. That appears to be the case with us.
There seems to be evolving a new branch in the science community, that percieves the universe as energy/information/holographic, opposed to the old school guys, who will fight to the death to keep reality materialistic.
There is even some degree of bullying going on, both within the community, and outside (among us amateurs). Labels like "pseudo-science" and "hypothesis" are frequently used as tools to discredit us.
I choose to treat it as the death-struggle of materialism :mrgreen:
It is the resistance of the space within atoms that makes existence possible - otherwise we'd all just crash together.
Well not quite. The protons contains a dragging force, while the electrons contains a resisting force. Those two forces make up our reality, but with the electron as the most important one (relating to our senses) - IMO :)

If the forces had been a fraction smaller, we'd be midgets, and everything would be very heavy to lift. A fraction larger, we'd be giants, and everything would be light as feathers. Imagine that! :mrgreen:

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Tue May 01, 2018 4:52 am

QuantumT wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 pm
I choose to treat it as the death-struggle of materialism
I don't think materialism false as there's a helluva lot of material around. I see it as a useful perspective, applicable in most areas, but there are other angles with which to view reality - in terms of maths and geometry or data and computing, or in terms of life, of consciousness, and so forth, although as far as we know all of these things need some kind of material substrate.

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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Tue May 01, 2018 9:53 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 4:52 am
I don't think materialism false as there's a helluva lot of material around. I see it as a useful perspective, applicable in most areas, but there are other angles with which to view reality - in terms of maths and geometry or data and computing, or in terms of life, of consciousness, and so forth, although as far as we know all of these things need some kind of material substrate.
I consider materialism as the subjective experience of each individual. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's the interface we use to navigate through life. It feels real, but it's not. But, it's all we have.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:53 pm
Greta wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 4:52 am
I don't think materialism false as there's a helluva lot of material around. I see it as a useful perspective, applicable in most areas, but there are other angles with which to view reality - in terms of maths and geometry or data and computing, or in terms of life, of consciousness, and so forth, although as far as we know all of these things need some kind of material substrate.
I consider materialism as the subjective experience of each individual. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's the interface we use to navigate through life. It feels real, but it's not. But, it's all we have.
There were seemingly material machinations before conscious experience, though, that made it all possible.

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QuantumT
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Re: Math and reality

Post by QuantumT » Tue May 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 pm
There were seemingly material machinations before conscious experience, though, that made it all possible.
Well, if we assume that we live in a zeroverse, we could compare the time before humanities arrival, to installing, loading and setting up the game of Sims.
I watched my kid do it, and it takes a shitload of time/work, to make it all as she likes it.

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Greta
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Re: Math and reality

Post by Greta » Wed May 02, 2018 3:39 am

QuantumT wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:30 pm
Greta wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:10 pm
There were seemingly material machinations before conscious experience, though, that made it all possible.
Well, if we assume that we live in a zeroverse, we could compare the time before humanities arrival, to installing, loading and setting up the game of Sims.
I watched my kid do it, and it takes a shitload of time/work, to make it all as she likes it.
The same could be said before other emergences - of life, of multicellular life, of trilobites and dinosaurs. Each stage might have been thought of as the point of the game, with considerable loading too.

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Re: Math and reality

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed May 02, 2018 3:01 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:42 pm
Greta wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:23 pm
I might need help with "zeroverse" as all I am finding on Google are links for Dragonball Z, software, quips and book lists.
Zeroverse is just a clinical term to destinguish between 3 possible options (listed by popularity):

1: Universe. One single place. No other options.

2: Multiverse. Endless universes, either in the same place, or side by side.

3: Zeroverse. A virtual place. Still real, but not physical.
It appears similar to some of the topics I have argued:


Do Points (0d) Act as Fields?
http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtop ... 39&t=34300

Lines and Numbers are Inseperable as Relativistic Unit-Particulate (Because of 0d Point)?
https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 26&t=23610

Relativity, Negation, and Atomism
https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 16&t=23043

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