Measurement: a math mystery

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 am

What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between. Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature). So if the points in between don't matter, then what does the three inches depend on?

PhilX

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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Blaggard » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:28 am

Zeno's paradox really? You must be really bored right now?

The speed of light in a vacuum that travels x distance, considering gravity and ruling out all other factors that might change this value defines the second and the distance hence.

The speed of light is a constant, it is called c it never changes, it might have in the past but as of right now it is exact by all measurement we know.

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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Breath » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:31 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between. Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature). So if the points in between don't matter, then what does the three inches depend on?

PhilX
Distance is not a function of the number of points in a line, as you say.

But distance is exactly a function of the stick length laid next to the line you are comparing it with, which you deny.

Why do you deny the connection between the length of the stick and the length of the line?

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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:23 am

Breath wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between. Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature). So if the points in between don't matter, then what does the three inches depend on?

PhilX
Distance is not a function of the number of points in a line, as you say.

But distance is exactly a function of the stick length laid next to the line you are comparing it with, which you deny.

Why do you deny the connection between the length of the stick and the length of the line?
Due to additional factors such as temperature so the length of the stick is an estimate.

PhilX

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A_Seagull
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by A_Seagull » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:34 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between.

There may not be an infinite number of distinct points between your two points, in fact most likely there are not.


Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature).

For many years a bar was kept in Paris that defined the length of a metre. It is no longer used as the definition of a metre but the principle is the same.

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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:44 am

A_Seagull said:

"There may not be an infinite number of distinct points between your two points, in fact most likely there are not."

What leads you to say this? (keep in mind I'm talking about ideal dimensionless points)

PhilX

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:40 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:A_Seagull said:

"There may not be an infinite number of distinct points between your two points, in fact most likely there are not."

What leads you to say this? (keep in mind I'm talking about ideal dimensionless points)

PhilX
Just a bird, dude. Of course there an infinite amount of points between two points, it's common sense. Heshe's probably talking about atoms or something.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by A_Seagull » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:10 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:A_Seagull said:

"There may not be an infinite number of distinct points between your two points, in fact most likely there are not."

What leads you to say this? (keep in mind I'm talking about ideal dimensionless points)

PhilX
It there were an infinite number of points between two places, then it would require an infinite amount of information to describe the position of a point. Infinity is an idealised mathematical concept that has not been found to have any correspondence with nay physical quantity in the real world. In other words, infinity does not exist in the real world. It is much more likely that space is quantised.

There is a length, called the Planck Length, which is approximately 10**-35 metres. This may be the limit the of length in the real world. Any points separated by a distance of less than this would actually be indistinguishable and hence be the same point.

PS It is quite an elegant and surprisingly simple process to calculate the Planck Length. All yo need to do is take the physical constants of the speed of light c. the gravitational constant G and Planck's constant h, together with their associated units. Then arrange the constants so that their units combine to a single length l, et voila! :)

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:14 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:A_Seagull said:

"There may not be an infinite number of distinct points between your two points, in fact most likely there are not."

What leads you to say this? (keep in mind I'm talking about ideal dimensionless points)

PhilX
It there were an infinite number of points between two places, then it would require an infinite amount of information to describe the position of a point. Infinity is an idealised mathematical concept that has not been found to have any correspondence with nay physical quantity in the real world. In other words, infinity does not exist in the real world. It is much more likely that space is quantised.

There is a length, called the Planck Length, which is approximately 10**-35 metres. This may be the limit the of length in the real world. Any points separated by a distance of less than this would actually be indistinguishable and hence be the same point.

PS It is quite an elegant and surprisingly simple process to calculate the Planck Length. All yo need to do is take the physical constants of the speed of light c. the gravitational constant G and Planck's constant h, together with their associated units. Then arrange the constants so that their units combine to a single length l, et voila! :)
Like I said, atoms or something. Planks' length applies to physical space. In math space the only limit is how much time you got and how many decimal points you wanna write.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:14 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 am
What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between. Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature). So if the points in between don't matter, then what does the three inches depend on?

PhilX
It would have to be further points observed inherently within the line, external of the line, inherent with the points and/or external of the points. In these respect the points must have a quantative value, in order for the measurement to "exist". As a quality the point may be a symmetrical dual to 1 as quantity.

From a qualitative perspective this thread applies here loosely:

Synthesis of Axiomatic Measurement as Modal Realism
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=23056

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:41 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 am
What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line). Suppose arbitrarily the two points are three inches apart. Counting the number of points in between is no good because no matter what the distance, there are always the same number of infinite points in between. Using a measuring stick also doesn't solve the problem because then you must agree on the distance the stick represents (plus other factors such as temperature). So if the points in between don't matter, then what does the three inches depend on?

PhilX
Distance is about ratios.

wtf
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by wtf » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:23 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 am
What is it that determines the distance between two points (say along a straight line).
The absolute value of the difference of their coordinates on the real line. That is actually the definition of the distance between two real numbers. The distance is defined, not determined. That's a philosophical point worth noting, if that's what you are thinking about.

Now this is essentially an arbitrary number. Suppose we have a copy of the real line, but without any coordinates (real numbers) marked on it.

We pick two points. One, we call zero. The other, we call 1. All other real numbers are now defined. The integers are all the multiples of 1 in the right and left direction. The rationals are all the halves, thirds, quarters, etc. And the reals are the limits of Cauchy sequence of rationals.

If we picked a different point for our 1, all the distances would be scaled proportionally.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Measurement: a math mystery

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:18 pm

Measurement can be observed as the application of "dimensions" as "directions" which these directions (quantitatively) have a dual qualitative number as "spatial".

The process of measurement, in many degrees, depends on a degree of "individuation" and "unity" where the percieve phenomena is measured through a process of "multiple related parts" or "as a unified whole" and in these respects measurement is the application of symmetry through the application of dimension.

Considering all dimensions as number have corresponding spatial features, number in itself as a measurement is the manifestation of spatial properties.

Considering all measurement is the application of 1, in many respects measurement is a process of self-reflection that manifests further structures as extensions of that same measurement system. In these respects, measurement is a process of consciousness through the application of symmetry and in these respects all forms of measurements are forms of self-awareness.

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