Is mathematics invented or discovered...

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Impenitent
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Impenitent »

plastic didn't exist

-Imp
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VVilliam
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:09 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:58 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:52 pm I see. But humans didn't invent sounds. They simply utilized their ability to make them, and invented language from that.
Right. That's basically what I said:
"Sure, we didn't intentionally create 'the ability to make sounds'"--This means that we didn't invent it per se; invention is an intentional act.
"but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans."--in other words, we have to exist for human sounds to be a possibility.
The math is in the sound
I don't agree with this, as I don't agree that mathematics is identical to any objective processes or relations. Again, mathematics, at root, that is at least in its simplest forms, is a way that we think about objective relations (and then the bulk of mathematics is an extrapolation from that sort of thinking).
Yet 'the way we think' is determined through 'the brain we have' and we know that the brain we have is that which is revealing to us mathematics because mathematics is within the fundamental structure of the universe the brain exists within and the brain we have recognizes this and shows us.

Then [for some reason], we reject that mathematics existed before we did.
Do you think that brains could do anything unique? That is, anything that didn't exist prior to brains developing?
I think you mean do I think brains are able to do unique things [invent things] which never existed until brains developed - Yes.
But I think those unique things were also inspired by what already existed.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:02 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:09 pm







Yet 'the way we think' is determined through 'the brain we have' and we know that the brain we have is that which is revealing to us mathematics because mathematics is within the fundamental structure of the universe the brain exists within and the brain we have recognizes this and shows us.

Then [for some reason], we reject that mathematics existed before we did.
Do you think that brains could do anything unique? That is, anything that didn't exist prior to brains developing?
I think you mean do I think brains are able to do unique things [invent things] which never existed until brains developed - Yes.
But I think those unique things were also inspired by what already existed.
Sure. Given your view, I was first wondering if maybe you thought that brains couldn't do any unique things, couldn't have any unique properties. So we have to figure out now why you think that mathematics and logic aren't among the unique things they can do. We need to figure out why you're thinking that they must exist independently of us and basically be something that we're either perceiving or at least "deducing in parallel (with the world)." What would you say you take as evidence or as a good reason to believe that mathematics exists as mathematics in the world external to us?
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VVilliam
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:08 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:02 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 pm

Do you think that brains could do anything unique? That is, anything that didn't exist prior to brains developing?
I think you mean do I think brains are able to do unique things [invent things] which never existed until brains developed - Yes.
But I think those unique things were also inspired by what already existed.
Sure. Given your view, I was first wondering if maybe you thought that brains couldn't do any unique things, couldn't have any unique properties. So we have to figure out now why you think that mathematics and logic aren't among the unique things they can do.
No - I am not saying that either. From what I can gather, brains are able to be used to build upon what is already there...So I can see the sense in the argument that there is a math which has indeed been invented by humans.
What I do not think, is that this means that ALL math is the invention of humans.
We need to figure out why you're thinking that they must exist independently of us and basically be something that we're either perceiving or at least "deducing in parallel (with the world)." What would you say you take as evidence or as a good reason to believe that mathematics exists as mathematics in the world external to us?
Well I am not a mathematician so my view on this has to do with the idea that everything we experience as physical [the universe] is the product of algorithms - coding.

On this planet [Earth] a great amount of coding is involved with biological life forms.

This is the 'math' I am referring to.

I just did a search [is the universe build on a fundamental math ] and found a few things, including this;

Mathematical universe hypothesis

I haven't read it yet, but obviously I am not the only one thinking about is as a possible truth...but the idea that we exist within a creation means that one has to examine said creation and find any evidence which may support said idea...
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:17 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:08 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:02 am

I think you mean do I think brains are able to do unique things [invent things] which never existed until brains developed - Yes.
But I think those unique things were also inspired by what already existed.
Sure. Given your view, I was first wondering if maybe you thought that brains couldn't do any unique things, couldn't have any unique properties. So we have to figure out now why you think that mathematics and logic aren't among the unique things they can do.
No - I am not saying that either. From what I can gather, brains are able to be used to build upon what is already there...So I can see the sense in the argument that there is a math which has indeed been invented by humans.
What I do not think, is that this means that ALL math is the invention of humans.
We need to figure out why you're thinking that they must exist independently of us and basically be something that we're either perceiving or at least "deducing in parallel (with the world)." What would you say you take as evidence or as a good reason to believe that mathematics exists as mathematics in the world external to us?
Well I am not a mathematician so my view on this has to do with the idea that everything we experience as physical [the universe] is the product of algorithms - coding.

On this planet [Earth] a great amount of coding is involved with biological life forms.

This is the 'math' I am referring to.

I just did a search [is the universe build on a fundamental math ] and found a few things, including this;

Mathematical universe hypothesis

I haven't read it yet, but obviously I am not the only one thinking about is as a possible truth...but the idea that we exist within a creation means that one has to examine said creation and find any evidence which may support said idea...
Right, you'd not at all be the only person thinking that mathematics obtains objectively, you'd not be the only mathematical platonist, etc. It's just that some of us think those folks are wrong and we think that those views aren't really supportable.

First, why would you see the "phyiscal [the universe]" as a "product of algorithms - coding"? As a very loosey-goosey sort of metaphor maybe that would have some utility for some things, but the problem with metaphors like that is that there's a tendency to start taking them literally.

It's also worth noting that those sorts of metaphors tend to be in line with whatever the current state of technology is, whatever's trendy etc. For example, people used to think about the universe working like a giant clock, which is part of what led to a lot of strong determinist views.

This is simply a factor of people tending to interpret things in terms of what they're familiar with, what they're focused on.
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:26 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:17 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:08 pm

Sure. Given your view, I was first wondering if maybe you thought that brains couldn't do any unique things, couldn't have any unique properties. So we have to figure out now why you think that mathematics and logic aren't among the unique things they can do.
No - I am not saying that either. From what I can gather, brains are able to be used to build upon what is already there...So I can see the sense in the argument that there is a math which has indeed been invented by humans.
What I do not think, is that this means that ALL math is the invention of humans.
We need to figure out why you're thinking that they must exist independently of us and basically be something that we're either perceiving or at least "deducing in parallel (with the world)." What would you say you take as evidence or as a good reason to believe that mathematics exists as mathematics in the world external to us?
Well I am not a mathematician so my view on this has to do with the idea that everything we experience as physical [the universe] is the product of algorithms - coding.

On this planet [Earth] a great amount of coding is involved with biological life forms.

This is the 'math' I am referring to.

I just did a search [is the universe build on a fundamental math ] and found a few things, including this;

Mathematical universe hypothesis

I haven't read it yet, but obviously I am not the only one thinking about is as a possible truth...but the idea that we exist within a creation means that one has to examine said creation and find any evidence which may support said idea...
Right, you'd not at all be the only person thinking that mathematics obtains objectively, you'd not be the only mathematical platonist, etc. It's just that some of us think those folks are wrong and we think that those views aren't really supportable.
Understand. Only I am not convinced that they are unable to be supported...
First, why would you see the "phyiscal [the universe]" as a "product of algorithms - coding"? As a very loosey-goosey sort of metaphor maybe that would have some utility for some things, but the problem with metaphors like that is that there's a tendency to start taking them literally.
Aware of that I am. I think though that sometimes an unacquainted perspective [non mathematical] has its own qualities of examination and may reveal something which otherwise gets missed by the acquainted.
I tend to see the description of DNA as a biological process which is encoded to become what it is [in form] [in form ation]
A fundamental building block which Genetic Code is based in.
Am I a biologist? No. I am not acquainted.
But the brain recognises the 'code' which is why it is called 'code'.
And coincidently In 1961, Francis Crick Sydney Brenner, Leslie Barnett, and Richard Watts-Tobin 'cracked the code' so did they simply refer to it as a 'code' because they were in a time where computers and coding were "the current state of technology, what was trendy etc."?

Or was the code discovered...
It's also worth noting that those sorts of metaphors tend to be in line with whatever the current state of technology is, whatever's trendy etc. For example, people used to think about the universe working like a giant clock, which is part of what led to a lot of strong determinist views.
The correlations yes. The idea is to be like water rather than like rock...flow with the current currents...don't stop and make a culture or religion out of them.. [the metaphors]
This is simply a factor of people tending to interpret things in terms of what they're familiar with, what they're focused on.
Understand. From the perspective of my [altogether] subjective life [to this point] I have been through the process of having the familiar peeled away to reveal the unfamiliar beneath its layers...I once was a theist and now am an agnostic theist...Atheism has never been something I find particularly productive in relation to the 'why' of existence as - using analogy - atheism is like being in a maze [life on Earth] and [in relation to the question of 'afterlife'] after coming up against an umpteenth wall, one sits down and cries out "Enough"...not for me, is that.

"Enough" is never enough.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:08 pm And coincidently In 1961, Francis Crick Sydney Brenner, Leslie Barnett, and Richard Watts-Tobin 'cracked the code' so did they simply refer to it as a 'code' because they were in a time where computers and coding were "the current state of technology, what was trendy etc."?
A "code" because we realized it had something to do with properties/traits that wind up being expressed, but we didn't know how to "read" it. So the analogy was to languages that we had to decipher to understand.


I'm an atheist, by the way. I was "raised atheist"--raised with no religious beliefs and very little exposure to religion period. When I first stumbled upon religious beliefs in any detail, which didn't happen until I was about 15-16, I seriously thought that people were putting me on (playing a practical joke). I couldn't grasp that anyone would seriously believe what I was being told about.
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:44 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:08 pm And coincidently In 1961, Francis Crick Sydney Brenner, Leslie Barnett, and Richard Watts-Tobin 'cracked the code' so did they simply refer to it as a 'code' because they were in a time where computers and coding were "the current state of technology, what was trendy etc."?
A "code" because we realized it had something to do with properties/traits that wind up being expressed, but we didn't know how to "read" it. So the analogy was to languages that we had to decipher to understand
.

Thus we have an evidence that it existed before we found a way of inventing a language in which we could then decipher it.
I'm an atheist, by the way. I was "raised atheist"--raised with no religious beliefs and very little exposure to religion period. When I first stumbled upon religious beliefs in any detail, which didn't happen until I was about 15-16, I seriously thought that people were putting me on (playing a practical joke). I couldn't grasp that anyone would seriously believe what I was being told about.
Yes - understand.

We all come from our various positions. As long as we do not become a 'rock' to those various cultures derived from those various positions, we should be relatively free to explore without fear...and bring to the collective table, our 'findings' to see how they might all correlate into a larger perspective of 'what is'..."Be like water and flow"...
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:54 pm Thus we have an evidence that it existed before we found a way of inventing a language in which we could then decipher it.
That DNA existed where DNA has something to do with traits that are expressed, sure.
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VVilliam
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:54 pm Thus we have an evidence that it existed before we found a way of inventing a language in which we could then decipher it.
That DNA existed where DNA has something to do with traits that are expressed, sure.
And the things called 'traits' are not invented but discovered...
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:21 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:54 pm Thus we have an evidence that it existed before we found a way of inventing a language in which we could then decipher it.
That DNA existed where DNA has something to do with traits that are expressed, sure.
And the things called 'traits' are not invented but discovered...
Right. I'm not at all arguing anything like "everything is invented."
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VVilliam
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:35 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:21 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm
That DNA existed where DNA has something to do with traits that are expressed, sure.
And the things called 'traits' are not invented but discovered...
Right. I'm not at all arguing anything like "everything is invented."
Nor I.

Except of course, in relation to 'the creator(s)' of the supposed simulation...that [creation] would have to be classed as 'invention' if indeed this is the actual case.
Thus those 'hints' as it were, which are discovered [not things invented] by us humans, may be evidence of that. [we exist within some kind of holographic simulated reality experience]

It may even be that the [supposed] creator(s) invented everything except the fundamental material which they used to form our universe from...stuff like that...ideas that need to be examined somehow...
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by Terrapin Station »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:23 pm Thus those 'hints' as it were, which are discovered [not things invented] by us humans, may be evidence of that. [we exist within some kind of holographic simulated reality experience]
I don't see stuff like that as anything other than SciFi/fantasy, really. It's just an exercise in what we can imagine . . . which is useful for its own sake, but it's nothing more than that.
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VVilliam
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by VVilliam »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:38 pm
VVilliam wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:23 pm Thus those 'hints' as it were, which are discovered [not things invented] by us humans, may be evidence of that. [we exist within some kind of holographic simulated reality experience]
I don't see stuff like that as anything other than SciFi/fantasy, really. It's just an exercise in what we can imagine . . . which is useful for its own sake, but it's nothing more than that.
Therefore you are not likely to see the hints if or when they present themselves.
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Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Post by roydop »

It's remembered. We've done this before. Many many times.

Human consciousness is trapped in a time loop. We keep following thought and technology thinking it will bring us to Truth/Reality and end suffering. It doesn't. Thought is what creates the illusion. Thought is Maya, and mathematics is pure thought.

This follows logically. If we think we are on the correct path but that path is actually leading us into delusion then it would be very difficult to break free from such a path. But i know the path.

www.onesteppath.com

Our natural state is happiness. The catch is that one needs to let go of the entire world to find it.
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