## Is mathematics invented or discovered...

### Is mathematics invented or discovered...

...or is some mathematics natural [part of nature - discovered] and other mathematics invented by humans?

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Mathematics is a language about abstract relations between abstract objects. A part of mathematics refers to an aspect of reality, the part that we invented, and another part we discovered.

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Like all human instruments it's made of and inspired by what we've discovered, but the end result is invented.

My favourite perspective on the matter Confessions of an Apostate Mathematician

My favourite perspective on the matter Confessions of an Apostate Mathematician

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

So are you saying that there is no math which is inherently integral to nature [discoverable and not invented by humans]?Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:12 am Like all human instruments it's made of and inspired by what we've discovered, but the end result is invented.

My favourite perspective on the matter Confessions of an Apostate Mathematician

- Terrapin Station
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### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

I basically agree with the other answers. Like logic, it's based on observations of relations, but that doesn't mean it's

*the same as*(observations of) relations, and so it amounts to a way that we think about relations, a language we've created to talk about relations. And then the bulk of it is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics.### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

So therefore language was invented in order to try and describe what it is that we experience as real. We use the ability to makes sound, by inventing a way in which that sound can be understood...but we did not invent the ability to make soundsTerrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 pm I basically agree with the other answers. Like logic, it's based on observations of relations, but that doesn't mean it'sthe same as(observations of) relations, and so it amounts to a way that we think about relations, a language we've created to talk about relations. And then the bulk of it is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics.

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### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Again, "VVilliam wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:08 pmSo therefore language was invented in order to try and describe what it is that we experience as real.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 pm I basically agree with the other answers. Like logic, it's based on observations of relations, but that doesn't mean it'sthe same as(observations of) relations, and so it amounts to a way that we think about relations, a language we've created to talk about relations. And then the bulk of it is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics.

*is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics."*

**the bulk of it**Sure, we didn't intentionally create "the ability to make sounds," but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans.We use the ability to makes sound, by inventing a way in which that sound can be understood...but we did not invent the ability to make sounds

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Why would you think that is 'obvious'?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:17 pmAgain, "VVilliam wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:08 pmSo therefore language was invented in order to try and describe what it is that we experience as real.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 pm I basically agree with the other answers. Like logic, it's based on observations of relations, but that doesn't mean it'sthe same as(observations of) relations, and so it amounts to a way that we think about relations, a language we've created to talk about relations. And then the bulk of it is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics.is actually built upon the languages we've constructed--we extrapolate from them to create additional structures, more advanced logic/mathematics."the bulk of it

Sure, we didn't intentionally create "the ability to make sounds," but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans.We use the ability to makes sound, by inventing a way in which that sound can be understood...but we did not invent the ability to make sounds

Are you aware that sound is closely related to math?

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### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Because we'd need some really wonky ontology to think that the ability to make human sounds somehow arose independently of humans.

It's not related to math in any special way. It's similar to any thinking about phenomena in a mathematical manner.Are you aware that sound is closely related to math?

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Relations are closely related to math: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra

Since you have deep interest in simulation theory. Relational algebra is basically the mathematical theory behind SQL databases.

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

I see. But humans didn't invent sounds. They simply utilized their ability to make them, and invented language from that.Because we'd need some really wonky ontology to think that the ability to make human sounds somehow arose independently of humans.

Are you aware that sound is closely related to math?

Related nonetheless. "Special" is besides the point as no one appears to be arguing anything is 'special'.It's not related to math in any special way.

The math is in the sound and the sound was not invented by humans. The human instrument came with the ability to make sound rather than humans inventing sound.It's similar to any thinking about phenomena in a mathematical manner.

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### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Right. That's basically what I said:

"Sure, we didn't intentionally create 'the ability to make sounds'"--This means that we didn't invent it per se; invention is an intentional act.

"but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans."--in other words, we have to exist for human sounds to be a possibility.

I don't agree with this, as I don't agree that mathematics is identical to any objective processes or relations. Again, mathematics, at root, that is at least in its simplest forms, is a way that we think about objective relations (and then the bulk of mathematics is an extrapolation from that sort of thinking).The math is in the sound

### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Right. That's basically what I said:

"Sure, we didn't intentionally create 'the ability to make sounds'"--This means that we didn't invent it per se; invention is an intentional act.

"but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans."--in other words, we have to exist for human sounds to be a possibility.

The math is in the sound

Yet 'the way we think' is determined through 'the brain we have' and we know that the brain we have is that which is revealing to us mathematics because mathematics is within the fundamental structure of the universe the brain exists within and the brain we have recognizes this and shows us.I don't agree with this, as I don't agree that mathematics is identical to any objective processes or relations. Again, mathematics, at root, that is at least in its simplest forms, is a way that we think about objective relations (and then the bulk of mathematics is an extrapolation from that sort of thinking).

Then [for some reason], we reject that mathematics existed before we did.

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### Re: Is mathematics invented or discovered...

Do you think that brains could do anything unique? That is, anything that didn't exist prior to brains developing?VVilliam wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:09 pmRight. That's basically what I said:

"Sure, we didn't intentionally create 'the ability to make sounds'"--This means that we didn't invent it per se; invention is an intentional act.

"but obviously the ability for humans to make sounds only arose within humans."--in other words, we have to exist for human sounds to be a possibility.The math is in the soundYet 'the way we think' is determined through 'the brain we have' and we know that the brain we have is that which is revealing to us mathematics because mathematics is within the fundamental structure of the universe the brain exists within and the brain we have recognizes this and shows us.I don't agree with this, as I don't agree that mathematics is identical to any objective processes or relations. Again, mathematics, at root, that is at least in its simplest forms, is a way that we think about objective relations (and then the bulk of mathematics is an extrapolation from that sort of thinking).

Then [for some reason], we reject that mathematics existed before we did.