Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:00 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:48 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:34 pm
Suicide is still conventional murder.
See. That's why you are a sophist.

Murder is wrong. Euthenasia is not.
No...what a sophist does is speak without reason...like you are doing right now. A philosopher explains so where one common bond of intuition fails, reason acts as the mediator.

Logik
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:01 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:00 pm
No...what a sophist does is speak without reason...like you are doing right now. A philosopher explains so where one common bond of intuition fails, reason acts as the mediator.
So you are still appealing to reason to justify the wrongness of murder?

And if you can't come up with a good argument then murder is not wrong?

You are fucked up :)

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:01 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:00 pm
No...what a sophist does is speak without reason...like you are doing right now. A philosopher explains so where one common bond of intuition fails, reason acts as the mediator.
So you are still appealing to reason to justify the wrongness of murder?

And if you can't come up with a good argument then murder is not wrong?

You are fucked up :)
I am fucked up because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.

I am "fucked up".

Why?

"Because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.


Basically what you are saying is that I am fucked up because I am rational.

I think I will save the ad-hominum and just take that as a compliment.

Logik
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:54 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm
I am fucked up because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.

I am "fucked up".

Why?
Because reason IS fallible too

And ANY process that concludes anything other than "murder is wrong" is broken.

Irrespective of what you call it!
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm
"Because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.


Basically what you are saying is that I am fucked up because I am rational.

I think I will save the ad-hominum and just take that as a compliment.
But you aren't rational! Your "reason" argued that "if euthenasia is right then murder is right". Is THAT what you call "rational" ?

IF you can find ANY set of axioms which result in "murder is right". YOU FUCKED UP.

You are falling for Newcomb's problem in decision-theory: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6ddcsdA ... ationality

You are trying to DEFINE "rational" by a particular ritual-of-reason, not by the outcome.
Last edited by Logik on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:58 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:54 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm
I am fucked up because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.

I am "fucked up".

Why?
Because reason IS fallible too

And ANY process that concludes anything other than "murder is wrong" is broken.

Fallibility is a strictly repeated divergence and is rational in and of itself.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm
"Because I appeal to reason to justify the wrongness of murder.


Basically what you are saying is that I am fucked up because I am rational.

I think I will save the ad-hominum and just take that as a compliment.
But you aren't rational! Your "reason" brought you to an argument that "if suicide is right then murder is right".

That's a clear error!

But suicide is not right, and that is not the logic. Suicide and murder are the negation of axioms, and we exist through self-evidence.

Because IF you can find ANY set of axioms which result in "murder is right". YOU FUCKED UP.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:01 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:58 am
But suicide is not right, and that is not the logic. Suicide and murder are the negation of axioms, and we exist through self-evidence.

Look at you grasping at straws! You are trying to dictate to OTHER PEOPLE what to do with their OWN LIVES.

Humanity disagrees with you. Euthenasia/assisted suicide is gaining more and more legal recognition!

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/182951.php
http://www.dignitas.ch/?lang=en

And so your axiom has led you to a conflict again. A situation where YOU cannot allow for the following:
Suicide may be right.
Murder is ALWAYS wrong.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:01 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:58 am
But suicide is not right, and that is not the logic. Suicide and murder are the negation of axioms, and we exist through self-evidence.

Look at you grasping at straws! You are trying to dictate to OTHER PEOPLE what to do with their OWN LIVES.

Humanity disagrees with you. Euthenasia/assisted suicide is gaining more and more legal recognition!

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/182951.php
http://www.dignitas.ch/?lang=en

And so your axiom has led you to a conflict again. A situation where YOU cannot allow for the following:
Suicide may be right.
Murder is ALWAYS wrong.


Suicide is murder. It is the destruction of the Divine image that constitutes "man as measurer". It is the negation of all order; hence value and justice. All life is valuable, even when it manifests itself in "the weak" or "dying".

Who is grasping for straws now?

Logik
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:15 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 pm
Suicide is murder. It is the destruction of the Divine image that constitutes "man as measurer". It is the negation of all order; hence value and justice. All life is valuable, even when it manifests itself in "the weak" or "dying".
If suicide is murder and murder is wrong, then you have rendered the word "wrong" meaningless and inconsequential.

What is the use in saying "suicide is wrong". OK - it's wrong. And then? There is no continuation - no action. No measurable change in reality except lip service. What are you going to do? Punish the corpse for committing suicide?

The distinction between suicide and murder is in that the victim and perpetrator are different agents.
And the reason we punish the perpetrator is as a warning to future potential perpetrators: "If you do this - we will punish you!".

it works.

By punishing murderers we reduce murder rates. It's one of the MANY mechanisms of society.
By labeling suicide 'wrong' you are not reducing suicides.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 pm
Who is grasping for straws now?
You are.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm

Logik wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:15 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 pm
Suicide is murder. It is the destruction of the Divine image that constitutes "man as measurer". It is the negation of all order; hence value and justice. All life is valuable, even when it manifests itself in "the weak" or "dying".
If suicide is murder and murder is wrong, then you have rendered the word "wrong" meaningless and inconsequential.

False, as "wrong" is defined by the framework through which it exists.

Or the prime triad: All axioms are nothing in themselves.


What is the use in saying "suicide is wrong". OK - it's wrong. And then? There is no continuation - no action. No measurable change in reality except lip service. What are you going to do? Punish the corpse for committing suicide?

No, give a perspective that the act of suicide will not accomplish the desired ends. Perspective is everything. Tell a man his life matters, unlike you who hypocritically claim "man is just a tool" because your logic "man is a computer and computer's are tools", and convincing him why is the fundamentally grounding point of morality. Reason is the formation of value, by taking "void" and giving "form" to it. In this case "void" is the inherent psychological state of the man committing suicide.

The distinction between suicide and murder is in that the victim and perpetrator are different agents.

False dichotomy as usual. The victim is both the murderer and the person murdered. Under suicide it is purely both. Where under standard "murder" the man is killing only a part of himself (the "other").

And the reason we punish the perpetrator is as a warning to future potential perpetrators: "If you do this - we will punish you!".

it works.

Suicide is it's own punishment.

By punishing murderers we reduce murder rates. It's one of the MANY mechanisms of society.
By labeling suicide 'wrong' you are not reducing suicides.

False dichotomy, because you "label" murder's as murder's as well and argue with one action comes a consquence.

If murder's are punished by death, or further suffering, then suicide is murder through the same punishment itself.

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 pm
Who is grasping for straws now?
You are.
Lol...not really. The only thing you can do is keep "diverging", in an effort to create some false identity grounded in the "rejection" you felt in your childhood by society. What you fail to understand is that you are strictly replicating the behavior you condemn. You are strictly following the laws of the prime triad:

One axiom (you) progresses away from another axiom (society).
However this progression is defined by an inherent connection (as the axiom which progresses away from the original axiom always exists through the prior axiom) to the prior axiom.


If anything...you should be pitied.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
Lol...not really. The only thing you can do is keep "diverging", in an effort to create some false identity grounded in the "rejection" you felt in your childhood by society. What you fail to understand is that you are strictly replicating the behavior you condemn. You are strictly following the laws of the prime triad:
Are you psychoanalyzing myself or yourself here ? ;)
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
One axiom (you) progresses away from another axiom (society).
You are preaching equilibrium to an systems engineer. We call them metrics. Attempting to balance more than one is called optimization.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
If anything...you should be pitied.
I do pity you. You are re-inventing the wheel. Youth is indeed wasted on the young.

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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:52 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
Lol...not really. The only thing you can do is keep "diverging", in an effort to create some false identity grounded in the "rejection" you felt in your childhood by society. What you fail to understand is that you are strictly replicating the behavior you condemn. You are strictly following the laws of the prime triad:
Are you psychoanalyzing myself or yourself here ? ;)

If I am arguing everything is connected through cycling...you of course.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
One axiom (you) progresses away from another axiom (society).
You are preaching equilibrium to an systems engineer. We call them metrics. Attempting to balance more than one is called optimization.

That fact that you create a word which diverges from a common word, is an act of divergence.
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 pm
If anything...you should be pitied.
I do pity you. You are re-inventing the wheel. Youth is indeed wasted on the young.
False, I am arguing the wheel is the foundation of all things. You claim all is chaos...then create more and more complex systems effectively replicating it...I am just point out your life is circular. There is no fool like an old fool.

Logik
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:32 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:52 pm
False, I am arguing the wheel is the foundation of all things. You claim all is chaos...then create more and more complex systems effectively replicating it...I am just point out your life is circular. There is no fool like an old fool.
What?

I all my claims have been about logic (Turing machines/Lambda calculus) being the foundation of human thought.

Human thought created the wheel...

Averroes
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Averroes » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:16 am

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:07 am
Implementation in Python

https://repl.it/@LogikLogicus/ShatteredIdentity



Counter-intuitive result

Code: Select all

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Sanity prevails!

A = A is True
A = А is False
А = A is False
А = А is True
Insanity returns!
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck - but it's not a duck!

Summon all your "experts" !!!! We have a situation here!
Not really. I reproduced your codes, and run it in Python 3 as you did, and the results are as expected, i.e. different from yours! Check it for yourself:
https://repl.it/@Averroes/everythingIsFine

Very intuitive results!

Code: Select all

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Sanity prevails!

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Insanity returns!
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck! :D
Everything is fine!

Logik
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:37 am

Averroes wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:16 am
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:07 am
Implementation in Python

https://repl.it/@LogikLogicus/ShatteredIdentity



Counter-intuitive result

Code: Select all

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Sanity prevails!

A = A is True
A = А is False
А = A is False
А = А is True
Insanity returns!
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck - but it's not a duck!

Summon all your "experts" !!!! We have a situation here!
Not really. I reproduced your codes, and run it in Python 3 as you did, and the results are as expected, i.e. different from yours! Check it for yourself:
https://repl.it/@Averroes/everythingIsFine

Very intuitive results!

Code: Select all

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Sanity prevails!

A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
A = A is True
Insanity returns!
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck! :D
Everything is fine!
This is textbook confirmation bias. You are only proving to yourself that which you already know.
You are making no attempts to demonstrate to yourself that a "law" can be broken.

I shall demonstrate it to you again: https://repl.it/repls/BrownFlawlessCharacters

Identity is an arbitrary axiom, not a law

roydop
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Re: Further demonstration the law of identity is broken (Sophists welcome)

Post by roydop » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:24 pm

Conclusion is stopping.

Round round we go. Spinning around in delusion, feeling as if there is a point to thinking beyond mind creating thoughts.

You know you exist relative to your thoughts, but not in and of yourself. Therefore you must continue thinking.

Ponzi

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