Humans, the Believing Animals

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Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Philosophy Now »

Aristotle says humans are rational animals but Kevin Currie-Knight argues that our capacity for belief is even more fundamental.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/154/Humans_the_Believing_Animals
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Lacewing »

It makes sense to me that human beings are more inclined toward belief than rationality/reason. :)

I've seen too much evidence on this forum of beliefs becoming idols for people that they will defend at all costs. I honestly hadn't realized before how extreme people could be in this regard. I find this surprising, especially on a philosophy forum, because I have thought that people here would care more about uncovering truth and evolving.

Throughout my life I have believed or thought various things at various times, and there has been a sense of growth and revelation when I discover/realize 'more' beyond that. My foundations have been shaken at times to the point that I didn't know if I could endure/survive it. But in looking back, I can feel gratitude for what became possible because of it. And I am not done... there is always more.

The article in the OP presents some very interesting points and considerations. (I'm using italics and quotes to show excerpts from the article.)

"The more we learn about the human mind, and especially about its deep-rooted psychological biases, the more our minds seem almost tailor-made for belief-preservation. This makes it difficult and even unpleasant to challenge long-held beliefs through reason."

We see this here continually on the forum in the areas of religion and politics. Although some of the best counter-arguments and evidences are put forth, people will go to extremes (including blatant falseness and absurdity) to continue insisting that their beliefs are true. In this way, it definitely appears that belief is more crucial than reason to some people.

"In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death. Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.

I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty. Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."


Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling. Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.

"While reason helps us cope with uncertainty by giving us a means to think things through, belief helps us cope with uncertainty by allowing us to feel respite from it. If all we ever did was maintain our existing beliefs, we would never progress or adapt in a changing world. But if all we ever did was reason, we would never be able to rest in any security about anything we believe."

Very true! It's an ongoing dance of balancing and movement. Quite fantastic, really, if we are willing to open our eyes widely enough to see beyond that which we seek to 'rule'.

I would like to respond to more of this article, but I must run just now...
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Dontaskme »

Without our story, aka beliefs, we are NOTHING AT ALL.

It's that simple.

Q: Who want's to be nothing?
A: NO ONE.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Iwannaplato »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death. Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.

I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty. Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."


Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling. Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.
Just wanted to tweak a little. When we think of belief, I am guessing many leap to things like the belief in God. Big beliefs about the existence of certain things. But beliefs have to do with all sorts of things, including things we do all the time.
For example, we have large sets of heuristics about how to achieve certain things: money, friends, romance, creative works: how to avoid certain things: being looked down on, being safe, figuring out the right things to do
and more.
Many of these we follow not based on evidence.
Then there are microversions of this. We have things like 'there I have analyzed that argument/idea/person/situation long enough quale. I don't need to look at it any more. IOW we use intuition about our own effforts, abilities, effectiveness, specific achievement in the moment all the time, without evidence - certainly nothing that would be accepted in a peer reviewed science journal.

These macro assessments/heuristics and then also microversions lead to decisions that affect ourselves and other people. They are not small stuff: they lead to voting choices, moral choices, assessments of parenting techniques or specific actions and attitudes in parenting, how we relate to other people and more.

These heuristics and intuitive assessment processes are working for us, we assume, think, have decided, have faith in. And of course, perhaps they just seem to. Many we are not even conscious of.

I'd also like to add: IOW it's not just about emotions, feeling safe and good. Beliefs are running a lot of our day to day activities (and actually are playing a role in how we reason - something people do not like to notice. In a sense you cannot reason without beliefs. Belief that your memory is generally ok. Belief that you have a decent grasp on the meaning of the words involved. and so on.)

It's not like some shiny day in the future we will be completely rational. That simply can't happen. Intuitional processes and as if we know cognitive processes and ad hoc assessments and axioms and habits are a necessary part of doing anything.

As a side note: I think it's poor language use to set beliefs in one category and rationality in another. People believe the conclusions they draw through reasoning. And they use beliefs as premises and arguments in their reasoning. In philosophy knowledge is often justified true beliefs, that is beliefs with strong justication for believing in them. A type of belief.

Oh, I reasoned about this so X is true. You just believe that.
Well, if you're rational (at least sometimes) you know that your truth may turn out to be a not so justified belief at a later time.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:46 am Without our story, aka beliefs, we are NOTHING AT ALL.

It's that simple.

Q: Who want's to be nothing?
A: NO ONE.
I get the sort of conceptual pun.
But, many people want to be nothing. Selves that hate life so much they can't bear it. Some remove themselves physically. Other conceptually. Others with numbness if they can get it. Not saying these approaches work or not. Just saying that some people, in the hopes they will, make these choices. Considering oneself nothing is also a story with motivations.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:25 am
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:46 am Without our story, aka beliefs, we are NOTHING AT ALL.

It's that simple.

Q: Who want's to be nothing?
A: NO ONE.
I get the sort of conceptual pun.
But, many people want to be nothing. Selves that hate life so much they can't bear it. Some remove themselves physically. Other conceptually. Others with numbness if they can get it. Not saying these approaches work or not. Just saying that some people, in the hopes they will, make these choices. Considering oneself nothing is also a story with motivations.
Every one is no one.

Hating life, or loving it, it's all the same no one loving or hating life, and life is simply this, and this being is every one and no one.

No one has any motive or agenda here, it only appears so.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 am Every one is no one.
Yes, I know you think this is the case. (iow: it's a belief)
Hating life, or loving it, it's all the same
(⬆️ a belief)
Not in my experience.
No one has any motive or agenda here, it only appears so.
(⬆️ a belief)

Then perhaps you will stop telling people what their motives are or explaining/acknowledging yours....
Maybe we've just reached a point where we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And that if we have to watch this same old boring worn out movie of life anymore, we are literally going to go insane, so, that's when we get smart and decide to exit the screen on which the movie is being played out.
That's why humans made up the idea of a Loving God who when worshipped will save you from the doom and lift you into the realms of heaven.
Sometimes people try to destroy you, precisely because they recognise your power
What is the artificial dream of conceptual separation? And why do we maintain this position, this duality?
with a link to someone who tells us why.
I'm not making any plans for what may or may not happen beyond my personal control.
Implicit: you will make plans about some, at least, of what is in your personal control.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:48 am
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 am Every one is no one.
Yes, I know you think this is the case. (iow: it's a belief)
Hating life, or loving it, it's all the same
(⬆️ a belief)
Not in my experience.
No one has any motive or agenda here, it only appears so.
(⬆️ a belief)

Then perhaps you will stop telling people what their motives are or explaining/acknowledging yours....
Maybe we've just reached a point where we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. And that if we have to watch this same old boring worn out movie of life anymore, we are literally going to go insane, so, that's when we get smart and decide to exit the screen on which the movie is being played out.
That's why humans made up the idea of a Loving God who when worshipped will save you from the doom and lift you into the realms of heaven.
Sometimes people try to destroy you, precisely because they recognise your power
What is the artificial dream of conceptual separation? And why do we maintain this position, this duality?
with a link to someone who tells us why.
I'm not making any plans for what may or may not happen beyond my personal control.
Implicit: you will make plans about some, at least, of what is in your personal control.
Iwannaplato, this is just more story telling.
An emergent/appearance of the believing and non believing brain.

AKA the dream of artificial separation where there is none.

KISS
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:48 amImage
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Iwannaplato »

Oh, I love Peter Falk, below with the great Bruno Gazz in Wings of Desire.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:31 am Image
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:14 am Iwannaplato, this is just more story telling.
An emergent/appearance of the believing and non believing brain.

AKA the dream of artificial separation where there is none.

KISS
Thanks for the kiss. Yes, I know that is your story...sometimes.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm It makes sense to me that human beings are more inclined toward belief than rationality/reason. :)
WHY?

I've seen too much evidence on this forum of beliefs becoming idols for people that they will defend at all costs.[/quote]

So, you base what 'makes sense in Life', from what 'does NOT make sense in Life', from what you see written by a few, on this website.

Also, a GREAT EXAMPLE of BELIEFS becoming IDOLS is WHEN 'you', "lacewing", like to CLAIM that, 'There is NO one truth'.

This is OBVIOUSLY a VERY STRONGLY HELD ONT BELIEF of 'YOURS', which you ALSO have NOT been able to YET LET GO OF, and so STILL REMAINS a TRUE IDOL of 'YOURS', AS WELL. 'you' have ALSO SHOWN that 'you' WILL DEFEND this BELIEF and IDOL of 'YOURS', AT ALL COSTS.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm I honestly hadn't realized before how extreme people could be in this regard.
Yes how EXTREME people CAN BE 'you', "lacewing", HAVE PROVED ABSOLUTELY here.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm I find this surprising, especially on a philosophy forum, because I have thought that people here would care more about uncovering truth and evolving.
YET here 'you' are "lacewing", one of the MOST STUBBORN ones HOLDING ONTO and STICKING TO 'your' OWN BELIEF here, INSTEAD of even just 'trying to' UNCOVER truth and evolving.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm Throughout my life I have believed or thought various things at various times, and there has been a sense of growth and revelation when I discover/realize 'more' beyond that.
BUT, because of your OWN PERSONAL UPBRINGING you just can NOT get past the fact that there just MIGHT BE 'MORE' to what you CURRENTLY BELIEVE is true, when this is being written.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm My foundations have been shaken at times to the point that I didn't know if I could endure/survive it. But in looking back, I can feel gratitude for what became possible because of it. And I am not done... there is always more.
But, to you, there is OBVIOUSLY 'NO MORE' to what you BELIEVE is true, nowadays.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm The article in the OP presents some very interesting points and considerations. (I'm using italics and quotes to show excerpts from the article.)

"The more we learn about the human mind, and especially about its deep-rooted psychological biases, the more our minds seem almost tailor-made for belief-preservation. This makes it difficult and even unpleasant to challenge long-held beliefs through reason."
OBVIOUSLY this one ALSO, like ALL of the other posters here, has absolutely NO idea NOR clue YET as to what the 'Mind' IS, EXACTLY.

BUT PLEASE FEEL FREE to CARRY ON as SPEAK or WRITE as though you DO KNOW.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm We see this here continually on the forum in the areas of religion and politics.
YES, SOME people REALLY DO BELIEVE and WILL NOT STOP INSISTING that God does NOT exist, just like SOME REALLY DO BELIEVE and WILL NOT STOP INSISTING that God DOES exist. ALL the while NONE of these ones ACTUALLY EVEN KNOW what God IS, EXACTLY, YET.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm Although some of the best counter-arguments and evidences are put forth, people will go to extremes (including blatant falseness and absurdity) to continue insisting that their beliefs are true.
YES THEY DO, and "lacewing" is A PRIME EXAMPLE of this 'behavior'.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm In this way, it definitely appears that belief is more crucial than reason to some people.
But 'belief' is NOT 'crucial' AT ALL.

The issue arises here BECAUSE some of 'you' ACTUALLY BELIEVE that 'you' NEED BELIEFS in order to live and exist.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death.
Well this is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of BLATANT Falseness and ABSURDITY.

Some people BELIEVE that they are ACTUALLY RIGHT, when in fact they are NOT, and this has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with so-called 'death'.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.

I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty.

Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."


Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling.
Is this WHY 'you' BELIEVE (in) 'things', "lacewing"?

Do 'you', "lacewing", BELIEVE that there is ABSOLUTELY NO one truth BECAUSE 'you' recognize the unpleasantness of uncertainity?

Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.[/quote]

Yet 'you' WILL KEEP 'your' BELIEFS, right "lacewing"?
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "While reason helps us cope with uncertainty by giving us a means to think things through, belief helps us cope with uncertainty by allowing us to feel respite from it. If all we ever did was maintain our existing beliefs, we would never progress or adapt in a changing world. But if all we ever did was reason, we would never be able to rest in any security about anything we believe."

Very true!
I do NOT SEE this FEAR that 'you', human beings, HAVE of 'uncertainty'.

I ACTUALLY LOVE and THRIVE on UNCERTAINTY. Maybe this EXPLAINS WHY I have NO NEED AT ALL for BELIEFS NOR BELIEVING ANY 'thing' is true, NOR even ASSUMING ANY 'thing' is true.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm It's an ongoing dance of balancing and movement.
But 'you' do NOT ALWAYS 'dance' "lacewing", and this is BECAUSE 'you' ARE STUCK in your OWN BELIEFS here. 'you', literally, can NOT move, evolve, NOR progress here. you are being HELD STEADFAST by those BELIEFS of YOURS.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm Quite fantastic, really, if we are willing to open our eyes widely enough to see beyond that which we seek to 'rule'.
you SPEAK and SAY 'this' as though you have ONLY just now COME-TO-REALIZE that it is BETTER to LOOK AT and SEE 'the world/things' from the Truly OPEN and wide-eyed view and perspective.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm I would like to respond to more of this article, but I must run just now...
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:46 am Without our story, aka beliefs, we are NOTHING AT ALL.

It's that simple.

Q: Who want's to be nothing?
A: NO ONE.
So those WITHOUT BELIEFS, which WAS ALL of 'you', ARE and WERE NOTHING AT ALL, right "dontaskme"?

Also, and by the way, although NO one might want to be 'nothing', some of 'us' have been brought up AS NO 'thing'.

Which, in a way, has SHOWN and REVEALED FAR MORE, than those of 'you' who are and/or were SOME 'thing' have so far come-to-see.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Dontaskme »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:06 am
Thanks for the kiss. Yes, I know that is your story...sometimes.
You're welcome, story sharing is fun.

Even when the characters have no biological father. :wink:

Things are only good because they are not being bad. And things are only bad because they are not being good.

What are we doing in life but waiting for the next good or bad thing to happen.
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Re: Humans, the Believing Animals

Post by Age »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:03 pm "In Denial of Death (1973), the philosopher and anthropologist Ernest Becker argues that humans throw themselves into belief systems owing to a fear of death. Becker suggests that as we become acquainted with the fact that we all die we use religious belief systems to console us that death is not the end, or secular belief systems to help us think of projects bigger than ourselves that will continue when we die.

I suspect that belief acquires its inertia not from fear of death, but from recognition of the unpleasantness of uncertainty. Beliefs give us a sense, however small, of safety against contingency, and assurance against uncertainty."


Great point! Uncertainty about all kinds of things can be very unsettling. Thinking we 'know' or have assurance can be a balm. It can also be a blindfold.
Just wanted to tweak a little. When we think of belief, I am guessing many leap to things like the belief in God. Big beliefs about the existence of certain things. But beliefs have to do with all sorts of things, including things we do all the time.
For example, we have large sets of heuristics about how to achieve certain things: money, friends, romance, creative works: how to avoid certain things: being looked down on, being safe, figuring out the right things to do
and more.
Many of these we follow not based on evidence.
Then there are microversions of this. We have things like 'there I have analyzed that argument/idea/person/situation long enough quale. I don't need to look at it any more. IOW we use intuition about our own effforts, abilities, effectiveness, specific achievement in the moment all the time, without evidence - certainly nothing that would be accepted in a peer reviewed science journal.

These macro assessments/heuristics and then also microversions lead to decisions that affect ourselves and other people. They are not small stuff: they lead to voting choices, moral choices, assessments of parenting techniques or specific actions and attitudes in parenting, how we relate to other people and more.

These heuristics and intuitive assessment processes are working for us, we assume, think, have decided, have faith in. And of course, perhaps they just seem to. Many we are not even conscious of.

I'd also like to add: IOW it's not just about emotions, feeling safe and good. Beliefs are running a lot of our day to day activities (and actually are playing a role in how we reason - something people do not like to notice. In a sense you cannot reason without beliefs. Belief that your memory is generally ok. Belief that you have a decent grasp on the meaning of the words involved. and so on.)
Here we have ANOTHER EXAMPLE of one who BELIEVES that 'we' MUST BELIEVE, and could NOT possible live WITHOUT BELIEF.

And, I would ask this one to PROVE that 'this' is true or not true, but because of this one's BELIEFS 'it' will NOT respond to my CLARIFYING QUESTIONS.
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am
It's not like some shiny day in the future we will be completely rational.
Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of ANOTHER BELIEF, which AFFECTS or EFFECTS the RATIONALITY of this one.

Because this one BELIEVES ABSOLUTELY that some 'thing' could NOT EVER POSSIBLY HAPPEN this one is NOT OPEN to LEARNING and SEEING 'MORE', 'FURTHER AFIELD', NOR 'what the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth IS, EXACTLY'.
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am That simply can't happen. Intuitional processes and as if we know cognitive processes and ad hoc assessments and axioms and habits are a necessary part of doing anything.
Well this ANSWERS the question I could have ASKED before.
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:23 am As a side note: I think it's poor language use to set beliefs in one category and rationality in another. People believe the conclusions they draw through reasoning. And they use beliefs as premises and arguments in their reasoning. In philosophy knowledge is often justified true beliefs, that is beliefs with strong justication for believing in them. A type of belief.

Oh, I reasoned about this so X is true. You just believe that.
Well, if you're rational (at least sometimes) you know that your truth may turn out to be a not so justified belief at a later time.
AND, WHEN, and IF, one EVER BECOMES Truly RATIONAL, then 'they' do NOT HAVE BELIEFS, nor even ANY 'need' FOR BELIEFS.
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