Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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promethean75 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:56 pm okay i wuz a tad off fishpi but still on with what he means by 'good' in the present context of that section of the treatise. in that part u quote he's working out the reasons why 'god' or substance couldn't be finite in essence becuz that would create contradictions.

<lots of Spin>

so since there wuz no 'creation' and Nature has always existed, any individual thing that has being or will have being is the generation of a thing that receives both its existence and essence from 'god', and as such, cannot be incomplete or in error. 'god' is good becuz he doesn't, can't, create something contrary to 'his' will. ergo, nothing in nature is bad becuz nature isn't bad becuz nothing in it can have an existence that is contrary to its essence. sumthin like that.
Sorry mate, you haven't convinced me. Still to me nowise in God who is all goodness, and perfection.

It's the goodness I still take issue with, even without my experience of this entity...the natural existence of things including life, are bloody awful, sure not contrary to their essence, but still not ALL good.

Regarding 'perfection' - ya I see that as just the mechanistic view of nature., the universe, seems to be in some form of perfect balance - on the whole
(NOT to be confused with what some theists would think to mean, 'perfectly good')
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Sculptor u wrote all that?

Why have u been holding out on us dude.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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promethean75 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:46 am Sculptor u wrote all that?

Why have u been holding out on us dude.
Yes, impressive if he did. But certainly I think the final statement would be his, and I will have to tackle him when I finally get a kip!
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
I am somewhat confused by this, and this is something I was going bring up with Sculptor when I get time. As far as I am aware, Spinoza was Pantheist (no personable God) whereas Panentheism does allow for a personable God, but expects God to be all within, and beyond the universe (which I think rather absurd).
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:34 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
I am somewhat confused by this, and this is something I was going bring up with Sculptor when I get time. As far as I am aware, Spinoza was Pantheist (no personable God) whereas Panentheism does allow for a personable God, but expects God to be all within, and beyond the universe (which I think rather absurd).
Spinoza was a pantheist, with a bias towards panentheism . Panentheism is open to interpretation as a form of theism, and most theists personify the immanent God. Spinoza certainly did not personify but was so concerned to keep his language free from ambiguity that he wrote 'Ethics' in a style of language like that of Euclid.
immanence, in philosophy and theology, a term applied, in contradistinction to “transcendence,” to the fact or condition of being entirely within something (from Latin immanere, “to dwell in, remain”).
Spinoza presumes reason is key to knowledge and good judgement. Men can reason , so have a capability to understand the workings of God-or-Nature (Deus sive Natura). It follows that God-or-Nature is immanent.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:34 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:34 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
I am somewhat confused by this, and this is something I was going bring up with Sculptor when I get time. As far as I am aware, Spinoza was Pantheist (no personable God) whereas Panentheism does allow for a personable God, but expects God to be all within, and beyond the universe (which I think rather absurd).
Spinoza was a pantheist, with a bias towards panentheism . Panentheism is open to interpretation as a form of theism, and most theists personify the immanent God. Spinoza certainly did not personify but was so concerned to keep his language free from ambiguity that he wrote 'Ethics' in a style of language like that of Euclid.
Thanks, I did not know he had any Panentheism bias - in fact I thought it likely that both terms were thought up later, after he passed.

edit: Duh, excuse - I hadn't slept for 48hrs prior to above - so it seems people assigned Pantheism to Spinoza, whereas I'd agree with you, that he appears to consider this God, still as an immanent intelligence - so of course, plausibly personable.

immanence, in philosophy and theology, a term applied, in contradistinction to “transcendence,” to the fact or condition of being entirely within something (from Latin immanere, “to dwell in, remain”).
Spinoza presumes reason is key to knowledge and good judgement. Men can reason , so have a capability to understand the workings of God-or-Nature (Deus sive Natura). It follows that God-or-Nature is immanent.
Yes, I think I really did underestimate his contribution to conceptualising God in such a reasonable manner. No wonder Arising_uk kept pushing me to read his work - which eventually I did, but not much and to be honest I should have read those that have analysed his work to get a clearer picture at the outset.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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I'm currently researching Spinoza - using the AI of course. I could be wrong about the "intelligence of God" re Spinoza, but if this remains the case, this is another disagreement I have regarding his consideration of the essence of God.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Ok. Well nobody is going to believe what I am about to assert.

God just killed my main computer that I was doing the research on. I had a break and sat down to have dinner (while watching a utube vid on Spinoza) ..when I returned to use PC - dead.
Stupidly I was using a file on the desktop instead of a cloud folder - which would then allow me to access from this device - a tablet.
I got my hands on an EPUB version of Ethics prior - and that was saved to the cloud, so hopefully will be able to get reading that on the tablet.

Earlier, also - I needed to use my old laptop to config something via ethernet - it hadn't been switched on for probably more than 6 months - power supply to that also is dead!!

I want to address Sculptors post re Spinoza and God, but thus far, I don't have much to argue against Sculptor's statement. I do however have some arguments with Spinoza and perhaps philosophy proper regading his statements pertaining to types of cause (I can't for the life of me remember what he stated re the type of cause...ffs)..whatever it was, it is axiomatically incorrect. :)

It's going to be quite some time until I am ready to address good ol' Spinoza!!!
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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"God just killed my main computer that I was doing the research on. I had a break and sat down to have dinner (while watching a utube vid on Spinoza) ..when I returned to use PC - dead."

that's becuz god doesn't want u to read spinoza. u know spinz has a thousand curses on em, right? if lucifer were a dutch Portuguese 17th century philosopher, he'd be Spinoza. even the lens grinding thing is spot on. spinz the illuminator or sumthin.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
Almost true.
The trouble with the word pantheist is that it is most often used to describe an omnipresent "personal" God.
For Spinoza god was not conscious; not reactive; has no desires, wants or needs; is utterly determined. God is the essence and substance of everything, the laws of the universe: nature itself; good and bad.

God is so much the same as nature, it always puzzled me why use the term god at all. That might have had something to do with the fact that atheism was a burning issue; in a very literal sense.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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so Spinoza brought us back to the ol' Aristotlean prime mover sans final causes huh... the church wuz shaken beyond measure and the scholastic philosopher unemployment numbers nearly tripled in Europe as churches and universities everywhere fell into crisis and disarray.

okay that's not really what happened but that would have been cool if it did happen like that.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
Almost true.
The trouble with the word pantheist is that it is most often used to describe an omnipresent "personal" God.
For Spinoza god was not conscious; not reactive; has no desires, wants or needs; is utterly determined. God is the essence and substance of everything, the laws of the universe: nature itself; good and bad.
"-----not conscious; not reactive; has no desires, wants or needs; is utterly determined." (Sculptor)


is what I mean by "not a person".


The word 'pantheist' as applied to assorted lovers of nature including the English Romantic poets, can mislead. Deus sive Natura is pantheistic because, in Spinoza's context ,nature is not merely wild scenery, sexual attraction, happy animals, and joyous children but is also every thing and every event.

[/quote]
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Belinda wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:47 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:34 am Spinoza loved God so much that he spent most of his life proving that God is good, and the more you get to know God through reason and knowledge the closer you are to God. He is not a theist, he is panentheist. I.e. God is not a person.
Almost true.
The trouble with the word pantheist is that it is most often used to describe an omnipresent "personal" God.
For Spinoza god was not conscious; not reactive; has no desires, wants or needs; is utterly determined. God is the essence and substance of everything, the laws of the universe: nature itself; good and bad.
"-----not conscious; not reactive; has no desires, wants or needs; is utterly determined." (Sculptor)


is what I mean by "not a person".


The word 'pantheist' as applied to assorted lovers of nature including the English Romantic poets, can mislead. Deus sive Natura is pantheistic because, in Spinoza's context ,nature is not merely wild scenery, sexual attraction, happy animals, and joyous children but is also every thing and every event.
[/quote]

I think the point being, Spinoza should have not used the pronoun 'he' and the term God - maybe 'it' relating to nature. But maybe everyone would have got upset (clergy types)
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