Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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attofishpi
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by attofishpi »

Belinda wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:20 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:56 pm

Yes. What you describe is the problem I have with Spinoza, that Deus sive Natura is understood by means of reason not sympathy. Sympathy and reason however are not mutually exclusive.
Interesting, no they certainly are not mutually exclusive. The reasoning of self-interest in identifying the self with other selves, leads to compassion, sympathy, and I believe love is perfect sympathy. The fact that all organisms are open systems should make the extended concept of the self, self- evident, and like the Buddha, we are then born at the level of the heart.
"The extended concept of the self" and "all organisms are open systems" do correlate both scientifically and psychologically. Can this be taught? Which religious sects teach it and which don't?

The Synagogue that could not tolerate Spinoza was not universalistic as compared with the sort of Christians who welcomed Spinoza after the Synagogue threw him out.
Do you consider pantheism accurate to describe Spinoza's thoughts in his writing?

I no longer do.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:50 am
Do you consider pantheism accurate to describe Spinoza's thoughts in his writing?

I no longer do.
I think it's a fair categorization. What made you change your mind?
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:02 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:50 am
Do you consider pantheism accurate to describe Spinoza's thoughts in his writing?

I no longer do.
I think it's a fair categorization. What made you change your mind?
Well, I read today the current WIKI description of pantheism and in no way does it permit anything Spinoza wrote by way of a non-intelligent, non-willing agent 'God'. I have to admit it's more recently that I delved into Spinoza's works, so truly didn't understand where his opinions on this 'God' is nature thing - but clearly he is tantamount to an atheist.

Who on Earth that read Spinoza would ascribe him as pantheist!!

To be honest - the description of 'pantheism' in WIKI has been updated to the point that I may consider it closer to the glove that fits my gnosis of God (i never like panentheism - a God operating beyond the universe contradicts the term 'universe')

If I could dare make my own definition it would be something akin to panrealism\panreality
Last edited by attofishpi on Mon May 22, 2023 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:30 am
Well, I read today the current WIKI description of pantheism and in no way does it permit anything Spinoza wrote by way of a non-intelligent, non-willing agent 'God'.
I looked at Wikipedia just now and I'm not sure I see the problem.

Consider this quote in particular: Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god,[6] anthropomorphic or otherwise

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:32 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:30 am
Well, I read today the current WIKI description of pantheism and in no way does it permit anything Spinoza wrote by way of a non-intelligent, non-willing agent 'God'.
I looked at Wikipedia just now and I'm not sure I see the problem.

Consider this quote in particular: Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god,[6] anthropomorphic or otherwise
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
That was what I never liked - since God is extremely personal.

But still - this is the clincher number 1.Pantheism is the philosophical religious belief that reality,[1] the universe and the cosmos are identical to divinity and a supreme being or entity. The physical universe is thus understood as an immanent creator deity

The worship of all gods of every religion is another definition, but it is more precisely termed Omnism.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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I don't personally like the definition of pantheism either, for probably very similar reasons. I don't like how Spinoza used the word god, I don't like how Einstein used the word god - I think they both used the word in a very similar way, really, to refer to a non-personal, non-mind "thing" called the universe / the laws of physics / nature.

But I'm sure they have their reasons for doing so.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:51 am I don't personally like the definition of pantheism either, for probably very similar reasons. I don't like how Spinoza used the word god, I don't like how Einstein used the word god - I think they both used the word in a very similar way, really, to refer to a non-personal, non-mind "thing" called the universe / the laws of physics / nature.

But I'm sure they have their reasons for doing so.
So you agree that Spinoza in no pantheist?
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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I think he IS a pantheist. I just don't think pantheists are all theists. I think it's a category that is inherently confusing by its name.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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It would be like calling a diet a "paleo-vegetarian diet" that includes eating rabbits. Adding the term "vegetarian" at the end is inherently misleading if the diet includes meat.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Flannel Jesus wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:08 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:51 am I don't personally like the definition of pantheism either, for probably very similar reasons. I don't like how Spinoza used the word god, I don't like how Einstein used the word god - I think they both used the word in a very similar way, really, to refer to a non-personal, non-mind "thing" called the universe / the laws of physics / nature.

But I'm sure they have their reasons for doing so.
So you agree that Spinoza in no pantheist?
I think he IS a pantheist. I just don't think pantheists are all theists. I think it's a category that is inherently confusing by its name.
Theist is required of a pantheist. Spinoza is an atheist thus he is a panatheist at best. :mrgreen:
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

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Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:24 am I think he IS a pantheist. I just don't think pantheists are all theists. I think it's a category that is inherently confusing by its name.
Confusion is the defining characteristic of categorical reasoning.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:30 am Theist is required of a pantheist. Spinoza is an atheist thus he is a panatheist at best. :mrgreen:
Considering the line I quoted from Wikipedia, that I think we apparently both agreed implied the possibility for a pantheist to believe in a non personal non thinking "god", and that belief in such a god arguably doesn't count as "theism", I don't think theism is required to be a pantheist. Which is why I think it's an inherently confusing term.

Ideally, all "X-theism" type terms should be subsets of theism. This particular term doesn't necessarily seem to be, I suppose depending on how we're defining "theism".

The quote from Wikipedia, for context: "Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god,[6] anthropomorphic or otherwise"
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by Skepdick »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:35 am The quote from Wikipedia, for context: "Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god,[6] anthropomorphic or otherwise"
Still - pantheism recognizes a god. Irrespective of how you qualify it.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:35 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:30 am Theist is required of a pantheist. Spinoza is an atheist thus he is a panatheist at best. :mrgreen:
Considering the line I quoted from Wikipedia, that I think we apparently both agreed implied the possibility for a pantheist to believe in a non personal non thinking "god"
The quote from Wikipedia, for context: "Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god,[6] anthropomorphic or otherwise"
Non-personal - does not imply a 'non-thinking' God.

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:35 am..and that belief in such a god arguably doesn't count as "theism", I don't think theism is required to be a pantheist. Which is why I think it's an inherently confusing term.
That's because you are inherently misunderstanding or misrepresenting what pantheism is.

Non-personal - to me implies a God that does not get on personal terms with us mere humans (something contrary to my experience) - it does not mean that it is not a willing agent God - a creator - as per the outset of the WIKI article, thus to consider pantheism as a NON-theistic concept is rather short of sight.
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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I think that's what non personal means in the context of theism. Maybe I'm incorrect about that, but I can think of examples of people described as pantheists whose "god's" do not think...

In fact, on Wikipedia the term "personal God" is a link to another article, and I can definitely see my interpretation of it being viable there.
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