How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

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Philosophy Now
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How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by Philosophy Now »

Tony McKenna relates how theology beat philosophy to fundamental metaphysics.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/152/How_Theology_Pre-Empts_Philosophy
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

This article is an excellent exposition by Tony McKenna on the historical theories on Being.

Augustine’s perspective of Being as essentially Wisdom comes closest to understanding what is Being. The other approaches whether theological or philosophical start from the human perspective and end up convoluted in their various views. The Being of the Supreme Deity is anthropomorphized in viewpoints that cannot escape the dualistic trap, except for Spinoza who escaped dualism by doing away with a Deity separate from nature or creation.

It is interesting that none considered a dreaming Deity. One whose mind substance creates a world from its own essence or mind, much as we do when we dream. Being as Existence, being as Consciousness, being as Mind does not creat dualism whereas having existence, consciousness or mind as qualities does.

Then there is the question of an imperfect world. If it were determined it would be perfect. If not determined once free will and intelligence become operational it can morph into self-will and obstruction of whatever the Divine plan happens to be. That raises the question of what safeguards prevents it from going off the rails and being destroyed. That may have happened. After a certain level of evolution is attained it is less likely. It could be the case that helpers evolved to guide the self-willed to accord with reality rather than attempt to usurp it.

A dreaming unconscious Deity buttressed by the laws of nature with limits set to extension which ends in the frozen energies of the material world, plus an awake Deity, an unmoved mover, would not necessarily mean dualism. In conscious sleep the dream and the dreamer and the world created are the same, enacting a play of ideas on mind stuff; the substance of the dream.
bobmax
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by bobmax »

Yes, and the dreamer, as such, cannot appear in the dream.

The dreamer in the dream cannot be there, it is therefore nothing.
Because there is only what is dreamed of.

However, it is just anything in the dream that is unreal.
Since the only reality is the dreamer.

The dreamer is the Being.
While everything in the dream itself is not being.

Is it possible to feel this intrinsic non-being of existence, of all that exists?

In my opinion, yes. It is that nothing that accompanies me silently throughout my life. And that at times it becomes more vivid.
It is the gaze of the Medusa, which I have always fled.

But I begin to think that that horror comes from my stay on the threshold, between not being and being.
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

Well said!

And it is true that the duality between the dreamed entity and the Dreamer is the problem.

How to resolve it? If all is Existing Consciousness, then in reality there is no difference between the dreamed entity and the Dreamer. It is a matter of waking up from the dream and uniting the entity’s dream consciousness with the Consciousness of the Dreamer.
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by bobmax »

owl of Minerva wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm Well said!

And it is true that the duality between the dreamed entity and the Dreamer is the problem.

How to resolve it? If all is Existing Consciousness, then in reality there is no difference between the dreamed entity and the Dreamer. It is a matter of waking up from the dream and uniting the entity’s dream consciousness with the Consciousness of the Dreamer.
I think the only possible solution is love.
Only true love can cancel duality.

But truly loving is very difficult.
As long as we are existence.

However, from my experience, it can happen.
So, even if for a single moment all separation falls.
I am gone, yet I am...
But immediately the moment disappears, and the nostalgia remains.
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

“Love rules the court, the camp, the grove,
The men below and saints above;
For love is heaven and heaven is love.”

*Stanza 2 from the third canto of ‘The Lay of the Last Minstrel, by Sir Walter Scott.

The problem of resistance or opposition to the Deity may be because of fear of a loss of autonomy. If free will is a choice between corresponding to Reality or opposing it, with either choice being an option, or if when autonomy or individuality is given it is not taken away, then that fear is baseless.
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by Sculptor »

Or put another way Philosophy supersedes failed theology.
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

Nothing supersedes anything else mentally. Each mental category has, rightly so, its own space. The human psyche is not one-dimensional. It is capable of more than one worldview based on its triune diversity of mind: subconscious, conscious, superconscious. It is possible to balance a rational, intuitive, and transcendent view of reality or to limit consciousness to one perspective. It is a matter of choice not necessity.
bobmax
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by bobmax »

I don't think the problem is due to the fear of losing one's autonomy.
At least that's not the case for me.

The problem is the horror of absolute nothingness, which appears as a possible truth, when everything in the world appears indifferent.
It really is a desert of values.
That is when no light comes towards me and doesn't even shine far away. It's not fear of death, however terrible, it's worse.

It's the awful possibility that love is an illusion.
But perhaps this horror is precisely what drives me to make love be.

PS
An owl came to stay on my roof. It's an animal that hates to be seen.
But once I went up to fix some shingles I saw her. Maybe she didn't run away because her nest was there.
She was beautiful!
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

A nihilistic view is just that, a point of view. It is possible to hold the opposite view, to be optimistic that life has meaning and value, and that love is real. We can think ourselves into any frame of mind. An antidote may be to read philosophies that are not nihilistic and see how that feels.

‘The owl spreads its wings only with the coming of the dusk.’
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

What is there for theology to brag when Metaphysics [re theology and ontology], even in its finest, is merely clinging on to an illusion and thus being delusional.

The seed of the inherent philosophical drive within all humans has always been there in the beginning. This seed when sprouted in the early stages of growth was diverted to theology with a certain phase or even necessary at present in human evolution.

However, the inherent seedlings of philosophy has been growing gradually to the extent philosophy is exposing the metaphysics [of theology] as fundamentally illusory and delusional.

Kant argued it is impossible for Metaphysics to be real in anyway, while speculating on Metaphysics is critically necessary for the majority at present and it does have merely therapeutic values.
IEP wrote:It is impossible, Kant argues, to extend knowledge to the supersensible realm of speculative metaphysics.
The reason that knowledge has these constraints, Kant argues, is that the mind plays an active role in constituting the features of experience and limiting the mind’s access only to the empirical realm of space and time.

Claiming to have knowledge from the application of concepts beyond the bounds of sensation results in the empty and illusory transcendent metaphysics of Rationalism that Kant reacts against.
https://iep.utm.edu/kantmeta/
owl of Minerva
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

The seeds of everything were there from the beginning, otherwise they would not sprout.

Kant dealt with cognition whether it was from sense experience or abstract idealism. He did not address perception, which if psychic evolution is cyclical, as posited in the documentary ‘The Great Year’ we may be moving towards, away from cognition as dominant to perception as dominant. Writers are worried they won’t have readers. They limit their descriptions to a bare minimum. Students resist books that are tomes, they resort to CliffsNotes instead. The visual, metaphoric, and symbolic may be gaining traction. Although comics came into existence early in the last century graphic novels came later in the latter half of the century.

It is true that Theology based on cognition is flawed. The Church fathers turned to Classic Greek philosophy to make sense of a faith, that after The Dark Age they did not fully understand. When religion has to be studied or cognized and analyzed its truths are no longer perceived. As mentioned in the article the Medievalists did raise questions which later philosophers took up and gave their own spin to.
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by popeye1945 »

Theology is ignorance with wings. Even mythology is better than sacred ignorance.
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by Sculptor »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:09 pm Theology is ignorance with wings. Even mythology is better than sacred ignorance.
At least with mythology most accounts are clear about their allegorical meanings. Theology is presented as absolute and literal truth.
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Re: How Theology Pre-Empts Philosophy

Post by owl of Minerva »

Many today have a knee jerk atheist attitude to religion, while others reject its mythic/literal stage while still believing in spirituality.

The stage religion is at today and its future and on-going evolution is ably explained by Ken Weber in his presentation on YouTube entitled: Introduction to Integral Spirituality,

Anyone of average intelligence should be able to understand this presentation which focuses on evolution at both the physical and consciousness levels, not just the physical level only.
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