Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

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popeye1945
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by popeye1945 »

Perception is a reaction/read biological readout, If one is to include the processes of the understanding it is what presents us with our everyday reality or apparent reality. Biological effect reaction is our reality.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Iwannaplato »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:01 am The difference between perception and hallucination is this. If something is inaccurate or doesn't help us survive/thrive in the environment external to us, then it's a hallucination or delusion. If it's accurate or helps us, then it's perception.
Let's say you live in pre-wall-fall East Germany, you know Stasi, etc. You have this idea that life doesn't have to be like this. That people are abusing power, justifying this on noble grounds, but not admitting corruption, hypocrisy or cruelty. You have these perceptions, that the good of the proletariat or whatever is not the real motivation of those in power. Or that this society is not a good one for the health of families. Or...etc.

For those of us who think those are good perceptions and not delusions or hallucinations, I still think the issue is up in the air how much one benefits from noticing AND certainly from living from those perceptions.

If they kill you for looking oddly at the emperor when his new outfit is nothing at all, then true perception may well be dangerous.

Yes, if you see a boulder on your left all the time and a tree on your right, regardless of what is actually there, you will be a poor hunter. But our lives are much more complicated than that, and as far as I can see many people seem to thrive on hallucinations of benevolent ___________________fill in the blank with your own dislikes (politicians, corporations, activists, organizations, and so on). People who notice systemic problems seem to have worse health than others who just along with the illusions.

I don't think this is simple or binary. I think it is complicated.
jayjacobus
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by jayjacobus »

Philosophy Now wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:56 pm Raymond Tallis argues against calling everyday experience a ‘hallucination’.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/149/Pe ... lucination
The scientific philosphy of the mind is not scientific at all. It is conjecture.

I know I have a mind but I have no way to way to conclude where it comes from nor how it functions.

The articles raises questions but no definite answers.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

1. All utterances of the brain are hallucinations.
2. The brain studies the brain.
3. "All utterances of the brain are hallucinations" is a hallucination.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:29 am 1. All utterances of the brain are hallucinations.
2. The brain studies the brain.
3. "All utterances of the brain are hallucinations" is a hallucination.
Why mention any of this, then?
And given you are talking about your brain, how do you know this is relevant to other brains?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:01 am Due to whatever factors (considered schizo features) I've had delusions and hallucinations while awake and it's much like living in a sort of semi-dream state while the rest of the body is not sleeping. The difference between perception and hallucination is this. If something is inaccurate or doesn't help us survive/thrive in the environment external to us, then it's a hallucination or delusion. If it's accurate or helps us, then it's perception. Simple enough in some respects. Species and individuals that have delusions die off relatively quickly (because we live in a dangerous world, one filled with strife and predators). Species that don't, don't. Granted, there is also innovation by humans that help us change the world to suit our delusions to some extent. And there is just dumb luck sometimes too.
In this case of "hallucination is controlled perception" the framework and condition is that hallucinations are qualified and placed on a continuum from 95/100 hallucination [delusional] to 10/100 hallucination [perception related].

Problem with Tallis in the OP is he did not take into account this qualified continuum.

It is interesting you are speaking with experiences of what is a 80/100 degree of hallucinations and delusions which you know are not 'real' relatively.

In terms of mechanics in the brain there is not much difference between 'perception' and 'hallucination' [80/100].
The difference is the degree of realness that can be verified and justified with empirical evidences via the scientific processes [highly reliable], conventional sense [less reliable] or common sense [not so reliable].

Thus the point is from your personal experiences of hallucinations [or perception-as-hallucinations] you are able to differentiate which hallucination or perception is more realistic based on common or conventional sense or in the logical, rational or scientific sense. This is what Seth meant by "perception is controlled hallucination".

One point is those with more serious case of schizophrenia may not be able to differentiate between those different types of hallucination and thus take the hallucinations and perceptions are the same and unqualified. In this case the schizo has lost control over his hallucinations.

One advantage of qualifying all of reality or perception as within a continuum of hallucination is that it leave no room for any one to claim whatever of reality is really-real, which is then useful to counter the claim there is a real God who issue commands to kill non-believers or commit other evil acts.

As such, whoever claim their thing is real and not a hallucination is a a non-starter. Thus it leaves the onus of anyone insisting what one claims as real to provide empirical verification and justification to justify what one claims is empirically real.

From the article, one will note Tallis belong to the Metaphysical Realists tribe who argue on the basis of this groundless view;
Prepositions, Facts, States of Affairs - all Groundless
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34902

Note Tallis' point;
Tallis wrote:Sense experience is no kind of hallucination, controlled or otherwise.
If I have the experience of seeing a cup in front of me and there is a cup in front of me (as is usually the case), this is not a question of experiencing any kind of hallucination, controlled or not.
Base on Tallis' groundless and unrealistic fundamentals, there is no way he will ever accept Seth's anti-realist's view where Seth argued based on empirical evidences.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by popeye1945 »

Perception is reaction.
Annette Campbell
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Annette Campbell »

The general notion is that the mind receives information from sense organs such as the eyes and ears in a neutral manner. Meanwhile, what we believe or expect impacts what we perceive in a hallucination. Also, Perception is a controlled hallucination in and of itself. Because you anticipate a structured world, you experience one, and the sensory data here serves as input on your assumptions. It allows making frequent corrections and refinements. However, expectations appear to be doing the hard lifting. Does this imply our perception is a delusion under control? I often think it would be more accurate to conceive of hallucination as a type of uncontrolled perception.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:29 am 1. All utterances of the brain are hallucinations.
2. The brain studies the brain.
3. "All utterances of the brain are hallucinations" is a hallucination.
Why mention any of this, then?
And given you are talking about your brain, how do you know this is relevant to other brains?
Because the hallucination of hallucination is a double negative (ie a hallucination is an absence of truth). As a double negative this points to truth existing.
popeye1945
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by popeye1945 »

Apparent reality or our everyday experience is a biological readout. Hallucination is the perception of that which does not exist. I would say biological readout is not a hallucination due to the fact that apparent reality is relative existence the only kind there is.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:54 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:29 am 1. All utterances of the brain are hallucinations.
2. The brain studies the brain.
3. "All utterances of the brain are hallucinations" is a hallucination.
Why mention any of this, then?
And given you are talking about your brain, how do you know this is relevant to other brains?
Because the hallucination of hallucination is a double negative (ie a hallucination is an absence of truth). As a double negative this points to truth existing.
That certainly didn't answer the second question nor is it clear how it answers the first.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:54 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:00 am

Why mention any of this, then?
And given you are talking about your brain, how do you know this is relevant to other brains?
Because the hallucination of hallucination is a double negative (ie a hallucination is an absence of truth). As a double negative this points to truth existing.
That certainly didn't answer the second question nor is it clear how it answers the first.
I mentioned this because hallucinations negate when self applied. If "all is a hallucination" then the statement "all is a hallucination" is a hallucination thus self contradicts. This contradiction results in anything going thus truth results.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:27 pm Apparent reality or our everyday experience is a biological readout. Hallucination is the perception of that which does not exist. I would say biological readout is not a hallucination due to the fact that apparent reality is relative existence the only kind there is.
What part of the body, and the part of that part, is responsible for the manifestation of biological readouts (ie self-referentiality)?
popeye1945
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote] What part of the body, and the part of that part, is responsible for the manifestation of biological readouts (ie self-referentiality)?
[/quote]

Eoldnho.

It was Spinoza that stated that the body was the idea of the mind, as in the fact that we only know the apparent/everyday reality through the changes that are made to it by what they call ultimate reality. Ultimate reality is all the wave frequencies we can sense and also all those we cannot. What we sense through our bodies is apparent reality. It is as a process full body consciousness, or a full biological readout similar to the figures one might enter into a adding machine the sum which comes out is apparent reality.
Phil8659
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Re: Perception as a Controlled Hallucination

Post by Phil8659 »

How do we know this is true?
Because in the printed version, you can recycle the pages to roll your own!
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