How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:20 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:57 am
Advocate wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:54 pm You wrote words. Well done. You refuted nothing. Try "mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain" in any real-world application and it'll clear things right up. That's the validation, and you haven't done it, so you can't speak to it. The Truth wishes not to be believed, regardless of evidence, but to be tested. If you want some other kinds of validation you can create it yourself. It's not necessary though. This just works.
You wrote word. Well done. You demonstrated nothing.
As icing, you attribute intentions to truth.
What is the pattern that leads to being aware or what gets called consciousness?
That's what neuroscience exists to figure out.
I think neuroscientists have a much broader set of aims. But as that sentence concedes, they haven't yet. So, we don't know yet that mind is a metaphor for patterns in the brain, especially given that experiencing/awareness/consciousness is so fundamental to minds. Patterns in the brain might be responsible, for example, for functions within consciousness but not for the consciousness itself. They don't know.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597559 time=1663687558 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=597558 time=1663687241 user_id=15238]
[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597507 time=1663649843 user_id=3619]
You wrote word. Well done. You demonstrated nothing.
As icing, you attribute intentions to truth.
What is the pattern that leads to being aware or what gets called consciousness?
[/quote]

That's what neuroscience exists to figure out.
[/quote]
I think neuroscientists have a much broader set of aims. But as that sentence concedes, they haven't yet. So, we don't know yet that mind is a metaphor for patterns in the brain, especially given that experiencing/awareness/consciousness is so fundamental to minds. Patterns in the brain might be responsible, for example, for functions within consciousness but not for the consciousness itself. They don't know.
[/quote]

The what is known from the experience of every creature with a brain. The how is a separate question. Anthropology has a how - a feedback loop in our theory of mind. Phenomenology had a what - it's an awareness fairy. Neuroscience is still developing the mereology and vocabulary to say anything more specific. But All of those variations are compatible with my answer. what about yours?
Iwannaplato
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:48 pm The what is known from the experience of every creature with a brain.
We do NOT know that experiencing is restricted to creatures with brains. I could link to what scientists are now considering very seriously about plants, which exhibit many, many cognitive features. But MOST IMPORTANTLY until we know what causes consciousness, we cannot know if it is dependent on brains. And we have a long history of bias, even towards other animals. At least, in the West we have, both from religion, science and people like Descartes, who felt either that animals were not like us or were automatons. Even 50 years ago in science it was taboo to talk about animals having consciousness, intentions, etc.
The how is a separate question. Anthropology has a how - a feedback loop in our theory of mind. Phenomenology had a what - it's an awareness fairy. Neuroscience is still developing the mereology and vocabulary to say anything more specific. But All of those variations are compatible with my answer. what about yours?
I am critical of you all in one answer. I am not making a proposal about what causes consciousness. I just know that scientists do not know now. So, your answer does not work for everything and is not proven for many things.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597563 time=1663690463 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=597561 time=1663688908 user_id=15238]
The what is known from the experience of every creature with a brain.[/quote] We do NOT know that experiencing is restricted to creatures with brains. I could link to what scientists are now considering very seriously about plants, which exhibit many, many cognitive features. But MOST IMPORTANTLY until we know what causes consciousness, we cannot know if it is dependent on brains. And we have a long history of bias, even towards other animals. At least, in the West we have, both from religion, science and people like Descartes, who felt either that animals were not like us or were automatons. Even 50 years ago in science it was taboo to talk about animals having consciousness, intentions, etc.

[quote] The how is a separate question. Anthropology has a how - a feedback loop in our theory of mind. Phenomenology had a what - it's an awareness fairy. Neuroscience is still developing the mereology and vocabulary to say anything more specific. But All of those variations are compatible with my answer. what about yours?[/quote]I am critical of you all in one answer. I am not making a proposal about what causes consciousness. I just know that scientists do not know now. So, your answer does not work for everything and is not proven for many things.
[/quote]

We've all experiences states of lesser consciousness across various dimensions and is clearly not the same thing below some level that is definitely an emergent property of cognitive complexity... and everything that psychology and neuroscience had uncovered so far is compatible with that understanding. It's an epistemic category error to push the scope of consciousness below the level of brain, or even perhaps to the level of some simple brains.
Iwannaplato
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:23 pm We've all experiences states of lesser consciousness across various dimensions and is clearly not the same thing below some level that is definitely an emergent property of cognitive complexity... and everything that psychology and neuroscience had uncovered so far is compatible with that understanding. It's an epistemic category error to push the scope of consciousness below the level of brain, or even perhaps to the level of some simple brains.
You are just asserting stuff. There is no evidence that you are correct. Yes, there is a vast amount of evidence that we are conscious and that brains affect all sorts of cognittive functions. But we have no idea how complex or what kind of complexity is necessary for consciousness. The communciation problem and the problem of other minds both get in the way of ruling out other things that may be conscious. We have no mechanism for consciousness. That would be a Nobel Prize, right there.

You can't say 'they will figure this out and it will support my hypothesis.' You don't know. They don*t know.

and the moment I brought up the issue, you conceded it, perhaps unintentionally.
They are working on this, you said.
Yes, they are. And they are working on it because they don't know yet. And even if they find the mechanism in us, that does not mean other mechanisms can be a source for consciousness.

And let's be clear. I am not proposing a theory. I am critical of yours. You cannot demonstrate the source of consciousness, so your earlier proclamation is not supported. It is not supported by science, though perhaps some day it will be. Right now it is incomplete and incomplete regarding the most fundamental and pervasive aspect of mind.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597565 time=1663691227 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=597564 time=1663691024 user_id=15238]
We've all experiences states of lesser consciousness across various dimensions and is clearly not the same thing below some level that is definitely an emergent property of cognitive complexity... and everything that psychology and neuroscience had uncovered so far is compatible with that understanding. It's an epistemic category error to push the scope of consciousness below the level of brain, or even perhaps to the level of some simple brains.
[/quote]You are just asserting stuff. There is no evidence that you are correct. Yes, there is a vast amount of evidence that we are conscious and that brains affect all sorts of cognittive functions. But we have no idea how complex or what kind of complexity is necessary for consciousness. The communciation problem and the problem of other minds both get in the way of ruling out other things that may be conscious. We have no mechanism for consciousness. That would be a Nobel Prize, right there.

You can't say 'they will figure this out and it will support my hypothesis.' You don't know. They don*t know.

and the moment I brought up the issue, you conceded it, perhaps unintentionally.
They are working on this, you said.
Yes, they are. And they are working on it because they don't know yet. And even if they find the mechanism in us, that does not mean other mechanisms can be a source for consciousness.

And let's be clear. I am not proposing a theory. I am critical of yours. You cannot demonstrate the source of consciousness, so your earlier proclamation is not supported. It is not supported by science, though perhaps some day it will be. Right now it is incomplete and incomplete regarding the most fundamental and pervasive aspect of mind.
[/quote]

The wisdom is semantic. So the answer is semantic. If we want to change how that works later when there's something to go on. As for now and forever in the past since it was first used, mind has referred to the patterns in the brain. It was that way before they knew there was that connection and there's no reason it won't continue likewise.

Of the mind, there is an area we can access and an area we cannot. Consciousness is a subset of the former. It's not bound to brain, it's a part of a section.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Advocate post_id=597581 time=1663702133 user_id=15238]
[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597565 time=1663691227 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=597564 time=1663691024 user_id=15238]
We've all experiences states of lesser consciousness across various dimensions and is clearly not the same thing below some level that is definitely an emergent property of cognitive complexity... and everything that psychology and neuroscience had uncovered so far is compatible with that understanding. It's an epistemic category error to push the scope of consciousness below the level of brain, or even perhaps to the level of some simple brains.
[/quote]You are just asserting stuff. There is no evidence that you are correct. Yes, there is a vast amount of evidence that we are conscious and that brains affect all sorts of cognittive functions. But we have no idea how complex or what kind of complexity is necessary for consciousness. The communciation problem and the problem of other minds both get in the way of ruling out other things that may be conscious. We have no mechanism for consciousness. That would be a Nobel Prize, right there.

You can't say 'they will figure this out and it will support my hypothesis.' You don't know. They don*t know.

and the moment I brought up the issue, you conceded it, perhaps unintentionally.
They are working on this, you said.
Yes, they are. And they are working on it because they don't know yet. And even if they find the mechanism in us, that does not mean other mechanisms can be a source for consciousness.

And let's be clear. I am not proposing a theory. I am critical of yours. You cannot demonstrate the source of consciousness, so your earlier proclamation is not supported. It is not supported by science, though perhaps some day it will be. Right now it is incomplete and incomplete regarding the most fundamental and pervasive aspect of mind.
[/quote]

The wisdom is semantic. So the answer is semantic. If we want to change how that works later when there's something to go on. As for now and forever in the past since it was first used, mind has referred to the patterns in the brain. It was that way before they knew there was that connection and there's no reason it won't continue likewise.

Of the mind, there is an area we can access and an area we cannot. Consciousness is a subset of the former. It's not only bound to brain, it's a part of a section of brain, by whatever name.
[/quote]
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Advocate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:29 pm The wisdom is semantic. So the answer is semantic.
Bare assertions.
If we want to change how that works later when there's something to go on.
Incomplete sentence.
As for now and forever in the past since it was first used, mind has referred to the patterns in the brain.
No, that is not true. That's a late in the game model and not one used by even all philosophers, let alone different cultures.
It was that way before they knew there was that connection and there's no reason it won't continue likewise.
Which of course is not a claim based on sematics (meaning of words used) but on your model. A model some have and others do not.
Of the mind, there is an area we can access and an area we cannot. Consciousness is a subset of the former. It's not only bound to brain, it's a part of a section of brain, by whatever name.
More bare assertions, and not really relevant to the discussion we are having. So, a distraction. Also the 'section of the brain' is speculative and sloppy. Like some part of the brain stem will be our unconscious mind when the situation is vastly more complicated. I notice that reductionist types rarely seem to even know about the nerve nexuses in the gut and the heart areas and how these are involved in mind. Or even how emotions are also distributed throughout the body. It's all brain, brain, brain alone. In your case because of the pithy guru role you seem to be taking.

I think you've boxed yourself in with your greatest philosopher positioning. You can't take criticism. So, you cut off one way to learn. In any case, you conceded my point right from the beginning, when I got specific. They don't know yet. If you want to know why you are not getting a Nobel prize yet or haven't been acknowledged as the greatest metaphysician, you could look at the way you avoid things for exmaple in exchanges like ours. Or not, and I am guessing you won't actually look at this. Your loss and to some extent a loss for wherever you post things, since it's like some dangling human paper where humans will get stuck for a number of posts until they extricate themselves from a pointless discussion.

Good luck with your greatness.
Bye.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Iwannaplato post_id=597620 time=1663732058 user_id=3619]
[quote=Advocate post_id=597582 time=1663702156 user_id=15238]
The wisdom is semantic. So the answer is semantic.[/quote] Bare assertions. [quote]If we want to change how that works later when there's something to go on. [/quote]Incomplete sentence.
[quote]
As for now and forever in the past since it was first used, mind has referred to the patterns in the brain.[/quote]No, that is not true. That's a late in the game model and not one used by even all philosophers, let alone different cultures.
[quote]
It was that way before they knew there was that connection and there's no reason it won't continue likewise.[/quote]Which of course is not a claim based on sematics (meaning of words used) but on your model. A model some have and others do not.
[quote]
Of the mind, there is an area we can access and an area we cannot. Consciousness is a subset of the former. It's not only bound to brain, it's a part of a section of brain, by whatever name.[/quote]
More bare assertions, and not really relevant to the discussion we are having. So, a distraction. Also the 'section of the brain' is speculative and sloppy. Like some part of the brain stem will be our unconscious mind when the situation is vastly more complicated. I notice that reductionist types rarely seem to even know about the nerve nexuses in the gut and the heart areas and how these are involved in mind. Or even how emotions are also distributed throughout the body. It's all brain, brain, brain alone. In your case because of the pithy guru role you seem to be taking.

I think you've boxed yourself in with your greatest philosopher positioning. You can't take criticism. So, you cut off one way to learn. In any case, you conceded my point right from the beginning, when I got specific. They don't know yet. If you want to know why you are not getting a Nobel prize yet or haven't been acknowledged as the greatest metaphysician, you could look at the way you avoid things for exmaple in exchanges like ours. Or not, and I am guessing you won't actually look at this. Your loss and to some extent a loss for wherever you post things, since it's like some dangling human paper where humans will get stuck for a number of posts until they extricate themselves from a pointless discussion.

Good luck with your greatness.
Bye.
[/quote]

I was going to respond ingeniously but then i realized you don't deserve it and it wouldn't matter anyway. My contention stands and does real work in actual practice, notwithstanding that you seem to want neuroscience to be finished instead of just starting, or that embodied cognition is not the same thing as mind at all.
Advocate
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Advocate »

Here's a list of quotes about mind; https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/mind

Substitute 'patterns in the brain' and you'll see either they still make sense or they never did. That's why patterns in the brain is what mind is; not Because it couldn't be understood otherwise, but because this understanding dies the best work. It clarifies the validity of any use of the word mind.
promethean75
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by promethean75 »

i just feel like this is a complex question fallacy because it assumes and grants that 'brain' and 'mind' are two different things and then, that they 'relate'.

right out the gate there's a conceptual confusion about the meaning of the word 'mind'. its semantic juxtaposition to the word 'brain', which is a physically existing thing, induces you think of the 'mind' as a separate, comparable kind of thing, but without a physical existence, that stands beside and relates to the brain through causal interaction. it's pure proto-cartesianism and u all should be ashamed of yourselves.
Iwannaplato
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:58 pm i just feel like this is a complex question fallacy because it assumes and grants that 'brain' and 'mind' are two different things and then, that they 'relate'.

right out the gate there's a conceptual confusion about the meaning of the word 'mind'. its semantic juxtaposition to the word 'brain', which is a physically existing thing, induces you think of the 'mind' as a separate, comparable kind of thing, but without a physical existence, that stands beside and relates to the brain through causal interaction. it's pure proto-cartesianism and u all should be ashamed of yourselves.
Well, if you actually read the posts, you'd know that Advocate agrees with you, so he would have nothing to be ashamed of by your criteria.

Otherwise, I know it's hard for many people, but in a philosophy forum people have different philosophical positions. It can be painful. Perhaps you should take longer breaks, in case you enter another thread and find people who do not make the same assumptions you do. Or you could avoid going online when you don't have a support person who agrees with all your philosophical positions.

They can hold you and soothingly murmur 'monism, monism....' until you feel ok again.
promethean75
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by promethean75 »

"They can hold you and soothingly murmur 'monism, monism....' until you feel ok again."

here she come now saying moni moni
Iwannaplato
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Iwannaplato »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:19 pm "They can hold you and soothingly murmur 'monism, monism....' until you feel ok again."

here she come now saying moni moni
Oh, I'm glad you have your own tools. Pardon my presumptuousness.
promethean75
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by promethean75 »

"in case you enter another thread and find people who do not make the same assumptions you do."

disagreeing with me would be both dastardly and preposterous and I certainly can't imagine why anybody would willingly do such a thing.
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