So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

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Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:16 pm ... you and I are bundles of experiences no more and no less.
Well, speak for yourself.

So when you get dressed in the morning. that's just experience putting clothes on an experience. Exactly what does an, "experience," wear--or do experiences go naked?

You may find it difficult to believe, but everyone I know is an actual physical being that has experience as one of its many attributes, including experiencing it's own awareness of himself, which he must do to get dressed in the morning. Conscious experience is hardly the only attribute of a human being.
An actual physical being is actual and physical because the mind is experiencing the body. Your mind is experiencing the clothes you put on. Experiences are not attributes of you, they ARE you.
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RCSaunders
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:22 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:16 pm ... you and I are bundles of experiences no more and no less.
Well, speak for yourself.

So when you get dressed in the morning. that's just experience putting clothes on an experience. Exactly what does an, "experience," wear--or do experiences go naked?

You may find it difficult to believe, but everyone I know is an actual physical being that has experience as one of its many attributes, including experiencing it's own awareness of himself, which he must do to get dressed in the morning. Conscious experience is hardly the only attribute of a human being.
An actual physical being is actual and physical because the mind is experiencing the body. Your mind is experiencing the clothes you put on. Experiences are not attributes of you, they ARE you.
Now tell me what an experience is that experiences nothing. Before you have an experience there must be something to have it (a living conscious organism,) and there must be something to experience (that which one is conscious of).

"Experiemce," is not a thing, or substance that just exists on its own.You are using the term as some kind of, "floating abstraction," turning it into some kind mystical, "stuff," as though there could be, "life," independent of anything living, or "pain," without anything to feel it, or, "experience," without anything to have it and nothing for it to be aware of. You and I are what have the experience and you and I are what we are even when we are having no experience, when asleep or anaesthetized, for example.
Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:22 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Well, speak for yourself.

So when you get dressed in the morning. that's just experience putting clothes on an experience. Exactly what does an, "experience," wear--or do experiences go naked?

You may find it difficult to believe, but everyone I know is an actual physical being that has experience as one of its many attributes, including experiencing it's own awareness of himself, which he must do to get dressed in the morning. Conscious experience is hardly the only attribute of a human being.
An actual physical being is actual and physical because the mind is experiencing the body. Your mind is experiencing the clothes you put on. Experiences are not attributes of you, they ARE you.
Now tell me what an experience is that experiences nothing. Before you have an experience there must be something to have it (a living conscious organism,) and there must be something to experience (that which one is conscious of).

"Experiemce," is not a thing, or substance that just exists on its own.You are using the term as some kind of, "floating abstraction," turning it into some kind mystical, "stuff," as though there could be, "life," independent of anything living, or "pain," without anything to feel it, or, "experience," without anything to have it and nothing for it to be aware of. You and I are what have the experience and you and I are what we are even when we are having no experience, when asleep or anaesthetized, for example.
What has experience A are other experiences that are not-A.
Living conscious organisms are complex and huge bundles of experiences, more complex and huge experience-wise than for instance a table lamp or a virus.
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RCSaunders
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:52 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:22 am

An actual physical being is actual and physical because the mind is experiencing the body. Your mind is experiencing the clothes you put on. Experiences are not attributes of you, they ARE you.
Now tell me what an experience is that experiences nothing. Before you have an experience there must be something to have it (a living conscious organism,) and there must be something to experience (that which one is conscious of).

"Experiemce," is not a thing, or substance that just exists on its own.You are using the term as some kind of, "floating abstraction," turning it into some kind mystical, "stuff," as though there could be, "life," independent of anything living, or "pain," without anything to feel it, or, "experience," without anything to have it and nothing for it to be aware of. You and I are what have the experience and you and I are what we are even when we are having no experience, when asleep or anaesthetized, for example.
What has experience A are other experiences that are not-A.
Living conscious organisms are complex and huge bundles of experiences, more complex and huge experience-wise than for instance a table lamp or a virus.
Table lamps and viruses have, "experiences?" How about rocks, and rain drops? Are you an animist?

I don't care you believe in such nonsense. I very much enjoyed the Thai people while living in Thailand (often referred to as the smiling people by other Southeastern Asians). They are mostly Buddhists and animists and think everything is some kind of spirit. The problem is when someone supposes they can know such a thing. Even if the inanimate had experiences, you could never know it. You cannot know what the actual experience of other human beings are, much less what any animal experiences. Experience is subjective and unknowable to anyone other than the one having the experience.
Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:36 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:52 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm
Now tell me what an experience is that experiences nothing. Before you have an experience there must be something to have it (a living conscious organism,) and there must be something to experience (that which one is conscious of).

"Experiemce," is not a thing, or substance that just exists on its own.You are using the term as some kind of, "floating abstraction," turning it into some kind mystical, "stuff," as though there could be, "life," independent of anything living, or "pain," without anything to feel it, or, "experience," without anything to have it and nothing for it to be aware of. You and I are what have the experience and you and I are what we are even when we are having no experience, when asleep or anaesthetized, for example.
What has experience A are other experiences that are not-A.
Living conscious organisms are complex and huge bundles of experiences, more complex and huge experience-wise than for instance a table lamp or a virus.
Table lamps and viruses have, "experiences?" How about rocks, and rain drops? Are you an animist?

I don't care you believe in such nonsense. I very much enjoyed the Thai people while living in Thailand (often referred to as the smiling people by other Southeastern Asians). They are mostly Buddhists and animists and think everything is some kind of spirit. The problem is when someone supposes they can know such a thing. Even if the inanimate had experiences, you could never know it. You cannot know what the actual experience of other human beings are, much less what any animal experiences. Experience is subjective and unknowable to anyone other than the one having the experience.
I'd not say animist(not just at present)but am trying out panpsychism, and it is working out so far.
I agree about not knowing others' subjective experiences, except for peak experiences perhaps. There is a significant ethical and practical reason for adopting a faith in panpsychism, or at least a sympathetic attitude towards panpsychism at this time.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pm
Philosophy Now wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:06 pm Eleni Angelou eavesdrops on a conversation between a Believer and a Sceptic.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/146/So ... _in_Nature
Nature means the superset of nomic connections, which is related to causation but transcends causation.

As an idealist I claim that Nature is a human construct.
You are right and that is supported by one of the G.O.A.T. [greatest of all times] philosopher, i.e. Kant.
Thus the Order and Regularity in the Appearances, which we entitle Nature, we ourselves introduce.

We could never find them in Appearances, had not we ourselves, or the Nature of our mind, originally set them there.

For this Unity of Nature has to be a Necessary one, that is, has to be an a priori certain Unity of the Connection of Appearances;
and such Synthetic Unity could not be established a priori if there were not Subjective
Grounds of such Unity contained a priori in the Original Cognitive Powers of our mind,
and if these Subjective Conditions, inasmuch as they are the Grounds of the Possibility of knowing any Object whatsoever in Experience, were not at the same time Objectively Valid.
Kant CPR A125
Kant don't simply make the above statements but support them with very solid but complex arguments which I don't have time to present fully.
Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:16 pm ... you and I are bundles of experiences no more and no less.
Well, speak for yourself.

So when you get dressed in the morning. that's just experience putting clothes on an experience. Exactly what does an, "experience," wear--or do experiences go naked?

You may find it difficult to believe, but everyone I know is an actual physical being that has experience as one of its many attributes, including experiencing it's own awareness of himself, which he must do to get dressed in the morning. Conscious experience is hardly the only attribute of a human being.
I don't know what you wear. I know how the Belinda bundle of remembered experiences influence what she chooses to wear.

Experience is not an attribute of some essence. Experience is all there is. It so happened that a great many experiences coincided to create RCS.
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RCSaunders
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:58 am It so happened that a great many experiences coincided to create RCS.
You think experience is some kind of, "stuff," things are made out of?
Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:13 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:58 am It so happened that a great many experiences coincided to create RCS.
You think experience is some kind of, "stuff," things are made out of?
Experiences are subjective phenomena so they are not "stuff" which implies material things, each of which has an essential attribute.
seeds
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pm As an idealist I claim that Nature is a human construct.
seeds wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:49 pm In what way did humans have anything to do with the construction of Nature?
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:50 am Either nature exists independently of men's minds, or nature is an idea constructed by men's minds.
Common sense dictates the latter notion is daft, but think of how we know nothing of the world beyond our mind/brains.
seeds wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:15 pm Belinda, if common sense dictates that one would have to be daft to entertain the notion that Nature is a human construct, then why in the world are you claiming that nature is a human construct?
Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:41 am Maybe that wondrous orderly system we call"Nature" is a construct in the mind of God.
Yes.

And setting aside the fact that you just blew a hole in your own theory that nature is a "human construct," can you not see how the possibility of nature being a construct in the mind of God, pairs up nicely with your later assertion that you are...
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:40 pm ...trying out panpsychism, and it is working out so far.
According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that mind or a mindlike aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality.
In other words, if the "...wondrous orderly system we call"Nature" is a construct in the mind of God..." then, clearly, you are on the right track in your "trying out" panpsychism, for everything is indeed a construct of mind (just not a construct of the human mind).

So, by all means, B, keep "trying out" panpsychism and see where it takes you, for it is definitely a step in the right direction.
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Dubious
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Dubious »

There is only process in nature; nothing equivalent to laws which rule or enforce a system to operate exactly in that manner. There is nothing specifically mandated. The term "Law" would imply something extraneous to the process itself which gets denoted as nothing more or less than a paradigm operative in this universe or section of this universe.

The term "nature" is a synthesis of everything we understand and don't understand.
Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

Seeds wrote:
And setting aside the fact that you just blew a hole in your own theory that nature is a "human construct," can you not see how the possibility of nature being a construct in the mind of God, pairs up nicely with your later assertion that you are..
My theory stands. The Absolute is not the personal God. God is an idea tacked on to the Absolute. When I wrote "nature-------construct in the mind of God" I referred to God as Absolute not God as a Person.
seeds
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:19 pm Seeds wrote:
And setting aside the fact that you just blew a hole in your own theory that nature is a "human construct," can you not see how the possibility of nature being a construct in the mind of God, pairs up nicely with your later assertion that you are..
My theory stands. The Absolute is not the personal God. God is an idea tacked on to the Absolute. When I wrote "nature-------construct in the mind of God" I referred to God as Absolute not God as a Person.
Okay then, so what you meant to say is that nature is a construct of the "Absolute." Yet you asserted that nature is a human construct.

So which is it?
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Belinda
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:19 pm Seeds wrote:
And setting aside the fact that you just blew a hole in your own theory that nature is a "human construct," can you not see how the possibility of nature being a construct in the mind of God, pairs up nicely with your later assertion that you are..
My theory stands. The Absolute is not the personal God. God is an idea tacked on to the Absolute. When I wrote "nature-------construct in the mind of God" I referred to God as Absolute not God as a Person.
Okay then, so what you meant to say is that nature is a construct of the "Absolute." Yet you asserted that nature is a human construct.

So which is it?
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Nature is a human construct. The Absolute contains all human constructs, including nature, times, seasons, places, things, relations, moral codes, saints, sinners, sufferings, joys, and human explanations of the physical forces of nature's workings. There is nothing the Absolute does not contain.
seeds
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Re: So You Think There are Laws in Nature?

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