Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

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owl of Minerva
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by owl of Minerva »

Belinda, what you have shared is very interesting. I would disagree with it on some points. Symbolism can be on two levels. on the human level, symbolizing sense realism or human perception only, just feelings or opinions. Or it can be a bridge between human perception of realism and universal realism. The former is limited, the latter is enlightening. Humanity has always known that what is experienced is not all there is. Symbols have helped to bridge the gap.

I would disagree that “Rituals have functions simply as rituals.” Although that may be true on a superficial level it is not their purpose. Their purpose is to evoke a sign of recognition that captures the psyche below its level of awareness. The goal is to depict not the thing but the effect the thing produces.

Moréas was right, symbolism is not hostile to naturalism and realism (sense or conceptual realism). When it depicts universal truths as it is supposed to do, it is very helpful to naturalism’s limited understanding of the nature of reality.
Belinda
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Belinda »

Owl of Minerva wrote:
I would disagree that “Rituals have functions simply as rituals.” Although that may be true on a superficial level it is not their purpose. Their purpose is to evoke a sign of recognition that captures the psyche below its level of awareness. The goal is to depict not the thing but the effect the thing produces.
Yes, but the effect that people who organise rituals (e.g. priests, headmasters, army sergeants, President Trump) aim to produce is the effect of felt togetherness. Most psyches need some degree of togetherness to keep them sane, and organisers of rituals need people to act together in harmony. Rituals work even where the partipants have conscious insight into how they work.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

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Veganman wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:25 pm The "philosopher" who basically said that you can do what you like to animals because they cannot reason.
Well, he at least got that right.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

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Walker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:51 pm ... an evolution in human behavior would likely occur should all die to the known, and be divinely reborn.
Try it. Let us know how it works out.
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

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Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:07 pm Owl of Minerva wrote:
I would disagree that “Rituals have functions simply as rituals.” Although that may be true on a superficial level it is not their purpose. Their purpose is to evoke a sign of recognition that captures the psyche below its level of awareness. The goal is to depict not the thing but the effect the thing produces.
Yes, but the effect that people who organise rituals (e.g. priests, headmasters, army sergeants, President Trump) aim to produce is the effect of felt togetherness. Most psyches need some degree of togetherness to keep them sane, and organisers of rituals need people to act together in harmony. Rituals work even where the partipants have conscious insight into how they work.
Oh yes. The madness of mindless mobs.
Belinda
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:14 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:07 pm Owl of Minerva wrote:
I would disagree that “Rituals have functions simply as rituals.” Although that may be true on a superficial level it is not their purpose. Their purpose is to evoke a sign of recognition that captures the psyche below its level of awareness. The goal is to depict not the thing but the effect the thing produces.
Yes, but the effect that people who organise rituals (e.g. priests, headmasters, army sergeants, President Trump) aim to produce is the effect of felt togetherness. Most psyches need some degree of togetherness to keep them sane, and organisers of rituals need people to act together in harmony. Rituals work even where the partipants have conscious insight into how they work.
Oh yes. The madness of mindless mobs.
Nice alliteration! :D
owl of Minerva
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by owl of Minerva »

It is true that politicians and others can use rituals and symbols for nefarious purposes. They manipulate those of meager awareness. Artists can use them to shock; symbols of decadence, desire, or pessimism in art, literature and music. We are familiar with them already, do we need to have them evoked? Picasso’s Guernica’s will it stop future wars?

These are symbols of human experience. This is not what I was referring to in my previous post. In contrast sacred ritual is that which does not evoke human experience or madness but what lies beyond it.
Belinda
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Belinda »

owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 pm It is true that politicians and others can use rituals and symbols for nefarious purposes. They manipulate those of meager awareness. Artists can use them to shock; symbols of decadence, desire, or pessimism in art, literature and music. We are familiar with them already, do we need to have them evoked? Picasso’s Guernica’s will it stop future wars?

These are symbols of human experience. This is not what I was referring to in my previous post. In contrast sacred ritual is that which does not evoke human experience or madness but what lies beyond it.
Picasso’s Guernica’s will it stop future wars?
There is no doubt that the goodness and truth of Picasso's Guernica will stop many people from wanting to make war.

Picasso's Guernica is sacred to the memory of war and its pathos. You need to learn new idioms.
owl of Minerva
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by owl of Minerva »

Maybe I do not need to learn new idioms. Picasso’s painting did not stop World War II. Maybe we need to focus on something other than human folly, although respecting, and even applauding the art. That was the point of my earlier post on the discussion of symbols. I had indicated in that post that they can be used superficially; nefariously in connection with politics is a better word.

However the discussion on the value of symbols stalled as that section was highlighted for discussion. I assume then that the premise in my post still stands that symbols, properly used, are valid and can connect our limited human sense perception to universal truths, otherwise difficult to access through the senses or even through reason.
Walker
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Walker »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:12 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:51 pm ... an evolution in human behavior would likely occur should all die to the known, and be divinely reborn.
Try it. Let us know how it works out.
"Definition of all

2: every member or individual component of all
8: being more than one person or thing"

Ignoring and eliminating a requisite element of cause, such as you have done in this case by ignoring the necessity of all to activate the phenomenon, will cause predictable other effects other than the inevitable evolution dependent upon conditions.

One obvious effect is an uptick in martyrs caused by bigoted holdouts who persecute those who are other than "us," and thus retard the divine rebirth of humanity *.

Of course, with the inability to close Pandora’s box, or put the genie back in the bottle, the odds of that happening anytime soon are rather slim, Jim.


(try sending up another lead balloon)


* humanity is, all folks.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

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Walker wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:15 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:12 pm
Walker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:51 pm ... an evolution in human behavior would likely occur should all die to the known, and be divinely reborn.
Try it. Let us know how it works out.
"Definition of all

2: every member or individual component of all
8: being more than one person or thing"

Ignoring and eliminating a requisite element of cause, such as you have done in this case by ignoring the necessity of all to activate the phenomenon, will cause predictable other effects other than the inevitable evolution dependent upon conditions.

One obvious effect is an uptick in martyrs caused by bigoted holdouts who persecute those who are other than "us," and thus retard the divine rebirth of humanity *.

Of course, with the inability to close Pandora’s box, or put the genie back in the bottle, the odds of that happening anytime soon are rather slim, Jim.


(try sending up another lead balloon)


* humanity is, all folks.
It has to start with someone. Any designer will use test cases before applying a principle to everything, (or in this case everyone).
owl of Minerva
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by owl of Minerva »

“In fact, an evolution in human behavior would likely occur should all die to the known, and be divinely reborn,”

………………………………………………………

This has less to do with ‘all’ than with ‘be divinely reborn.’ What does the latter mean? Does it mean through free choice and effort they liberated themselves into divine realization without the possibility of regress, in which case their free choice is maintained. Or does it mean reborn by divine fiat as robotic entities?
Walker
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Walker »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:20 pm “In fact, an evolution in human behavior would likely occur should all die to the known, and be divinely reborn,”

………………………………………………………

This has less to do with ‘all’ than with ‘be divinely reborn.’ What does the latter mean? Does it mean through free choice and effort they liberated themselves into divine realization without the possibility of regress, in which case their free choice is maintained. Or does it mean reborn by divine fiat as robotic entities?
It means, Wu Wei.

It means, actionless action guided by The Supreme Ordering Principle of the Universe.
Walker
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Walker »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:47 pm It has to start with someone. Any designer will use test cases before applying a principle to everything, (or in this case everyone).
That makes it much easier to crucify one martyr at a time.
Belinda
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Re: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

Post by Belinda »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:58 pm Maybe I do not need to learn new idioms. Picasso’s painting did not stop World War II. Maybe we need to focus on something other than human folly, although respecting, and even applauding the art. That was the point of my earlier post on the discussion of symbols. I had indicated in that post that they can be used superficially; nefariously in connection with politics is a better word.

However the discussion on the value of symbols stalled as that section was highlighted for discussion. I assume then that the premise in my post still stands that symbols, properly used, are valid and can connect our limited human sense perception to universal truths, otherwise difficult to access through the senses or even through reason.
Yes, but religion does not own The Bible or sacred symbols. The Bible and sacred symbols are common property.
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