The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Philosophy Now
Posts: 1204
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:49 am

The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Philosophy Now »

Carlos Muñoz-Suárez guides us on a trip down the linguistic rabbit hole.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/103/The_Tractatus_is_it_so_intractable
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by attofishpi »

Moreover, “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality” (4.06).

Now, take the proposition ‘the cat is on the chair’, and imagine the spatial arrangement of the cat being on the chair. That arrangement – cat on chair – is what Wittgenstein calls the sense of the proposition. The sense of a proposition is the state of affairs to which it corresponds: “A proposition shows how things stand if it is true” (4.022). The nouns in a propositional sign (for instance, in the sentence ‘the cat is on the chair’) correspond to the things involved in the state of affairs expressed by the propositional sign (3.21), such that “a name means an object” (3.203); for instance, ‘cat’ means the cat. If there is not a cat on a chair, then the expressed proposition “will not be nonsensical… but simply false” (3.24); yet “if a proposition has no sense, nothing corresponds to it, since it does not designate a thing” (4.063) – that is, a proposition is nonsensical if there is no possible state of affairs that it pictures. Moreover, to Wittgenstein, the simple sign ‘cat’ lacks sense, since only propositions have sense.
The “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality”

I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Terrapin Station »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am
Moreover, “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality” (4.06).

Now, take the proposition ‘the cat is on the chair’, and imagine the spatial arrangement of the cat being on the chair. That arrangement – cat on chair – is what Wittgenstein calls the sense of the proposition. The sense of a proposition is the state of affairs to which it corresponds: “A proposition shows how things stand if it is true” (4.022). The nouns in a propositional sign (for instance, in the sentence ‘the cat is on the chair’) correspond to the things involved in the state of affairs expressed by the propositional sign (3.21), such that “a name means an object” (3.203); for instance, ‘cat’ means the cat. If there is not a cat on a chair, then the expressed proposition “will not be nonsensical… but simply false” (3.24); yet “if a proposition has no sense, nothing corresponds to it, since it does not designate a thing” (4.063) – that is, a proposition is nonsensical if there is no possible state of affairs that it pictures. Moreover, to Wittgenstein, the simple sign ‘cat’ lacks sense, since only propositions have sense.
The “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality”

I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
The point would be that understanding that proposition would mean knowing what is the case if it is true.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9939
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by attofishpi »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:28 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am
Moreover, “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality” (4.06).

Now, take the proposition ‘the cat is on the chair’, and imagine the spatial arrangement of the cat being on the chair. That arrangement – cat on chair – is what Wittgenstein calls the sense of the proposition. The sense of a proposition is the state of affairs to which it corresponds: “A proposition shows how things stand if it is true” (4.022). The nouns in a propositional sign (for instance, in the sentence ‘the cat is on the chair’) correspond to the things involved in the state of affairs expressed by the propositional sign (3.21), such that “a name means an object” (3.203); for instance, ‘cat’ means the cat. If there is not a cat on a chair, then the expressed proposition “will not be nonsensical… but simply false” (3.24); yet “if a proposition has no sense, nothing corresponds to it, since it does not designate a thing” (4.063) – that is, a proposition is nonsensical if there is no possible state of affairs that it pictures. Moreover, to Wittgenstein, the simple sign ‘cat’ lacks sense, since only propositions have sense.
The “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality”

I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
The point would be that understanding that proposition would mean knowing what is the case if it is true.
Well, the cat IS on the chair, I am just being pedantic about what is intended to be a metaphor.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:28 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am
Moreover, “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality” (4.06).

Now, take the proposition ‘the cat is on the chair’, and imagine the spatial arrangement of the cat being on the chair. That arrangement – cat on chair – is what Wittgenstein calls the sense of the proposition. The sense of a proposition is the state of affairs to which it corresponds: “A proposition shows how things stand if it is true” (4.022). The nouns in a propositional sign (for instance, in the sentence ‘the cat is on the chair’) correspond to the things involved in the state of affairs expressed by the propositional sign (3.21), such that “a name means an object” (3.203); for instance, ‘cat’ means the cat. If there is not a cat on a chair, then the expressed proposition “will not be nonsensical… but simply false” (3.24); yet “if a proposition has no sense, nothing corresponds to it, since it does not designate a thing” (4.063) – that is, a proposition is nonsensical if there is no possible state of affairs that it pictures. Moreover, to Wittgenstein, the simple sign ‘cat’ lacks sense, since only propositions have sense.
The “To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true” (4.024), and “a proposition can be true or false only in virtue of being a picture of reality”

I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
The point would be that understanding that proposition would mean knowing what is the case if it is true.
I noted the following from Robert Hanna;
  • The limit of language is shown by its being impossible to describe the fact which corresponds to (is the translation of) a sentence, without simply repeating the sentence.
    Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, p. 10e.
  • The Tractatus ends with the strangely moving proposition,
    “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent”
    /Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss mann schweigen (prop. 7)
  • More precisely, for Wittgenstein,
    to say that a proposition is “nonsense” is only to say that it literally does not picture an atomic fact,
    and also that the proposition is not a contingent (i.e., non-tautological, non-contradictory) truth-function of propositions that picture atomic facts.

    This exhausts the domain of what can be “said” in the strict sense.
As implied from Russell .. 'perhaps there is no cat at all' as claimed to be sitting on the chair.
Russell wrote:Among these surprising possibilities, doubt suggests that perhaps there is no table at all.
-Chapter 1 - Problems of Philosophy
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Skepdick »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:32 am Well, the cat IS on the chair, I am just being pedantic about what is intended to be a metaphor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDiENpmpY78

The point about cats and tables is at about the 6 minute mark.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:32 am Well, the cat IS on the chair, I am just being pedantic about what is intended to be a metaphor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDiENpmpY78

The point about cats and tables is at about the 6 minute mark.
Interestingly Note @7.14
https://youtu.be/TDiENpmpY78?t=435

which align with the point by Wittgenstein above
  • "The limit of language is shown by its being impossible to describe the fact which corresponds to (is the translation of) a sentence, without simply repeating the sentence.
    (This has to do with the Kantian solution of the problem of philosophy.)"
    Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, p. 10e.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Skepdick »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:34 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:56 am I'm thinking of a cat with its claws out hanging on the fabric at the side of the chair. Is the proposition "the cat is on the chair" TRUE or FALSE or OTHER?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:32 am Well, the cat IS on the chair, I am just being pedantic about what is intended to be a metaphor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDiENpmpY78

The point about cats and tables is at about the 6 minute mark.
Interestingly Note @7.14
https://youtu.be/TDiENpmpY78?t=435

which align with the point by Wittgenstein above
  • "The limit of language is shown by its being impossible to describe the fact which corresponds to (is the translation of) a sentence, without simply repeating the sentence.
    (This has to do with the Kantian solution of the problem of philosophy.)"
    Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, p. 10e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indetermi ... ranslation

Quine hated being called a postmodernist, but he sure furthered the postmodern idea of plurality of meaning/truth.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12242
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: The Tractatus… is it so intractable?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:48 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:34 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDiENpmpY78

The point about cats and tables is at about the 6 minute mark.
Interestingly Note @7.14
https://youtu.be/TDiENpmpY78?t=435

which align with the point by Wittgenstein above
  • "The limit of language is shown by its being impossible to describe the fact which corresponds to (is the translation of) a sentence, without simply repeating the sentence.
    (This has to do with the Kantian solution of the problem of philosophy.)"
    Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, p. 10e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indetermi ... ranslation

Quine hated being called a postmodernist, but he sure furthered the postmodern idea of plurality of meaning/truth.
Quine hammered the last nail in the coffin of the bastardized philosophies of Analtism [analytism] adopted by Pantflasher, Peter Holmes, Sculptor, TerrapinStation and the likes and yet they are still trying to shout with their final breaths.
Post Reply