How On Earth Can We Be Free?

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Age
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:52 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:31 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:03 am
So what you are talking about?
'I' am talking about 'free will' in the way that FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth here, which EVERY one could agree with and accept.
I am talking about free will given the definition. What you are talking about?
But you said it was, "off-topic".

Which can be just ANOTHER TACTIC that 'you', adult human beings, say and use when you are STUCK in NOT being able to back up and support your views and CLAIMS.

The exact same thing can NOT be, logically, "off-topic", but then, suddenly, back "on-topic", just because one in a discussion CHOOSES it is.
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Re: How On Earth Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:25 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:50 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:15 am

If you are, supposedly and allegedly, NOT talking about right or wrong decisions, then I suggest that you REFRAIN from talking about YOUR wrong decisions, AGAIN, from now on, understood?
To be clear the point is that I didn't know which way is the correct way. Because of that, I could not be influenced by anything.
BUT YOU WERE INFLUENCED BY WHERE YOU WANTED TO GO, OBVIOUSLY.

Remember the ONLY one that you are 'trying to' DECEIVE here is 'you'. And, I will remind you that IT IS WORKING.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:49 am The fact that I get the wrong way and get elsewhere has nothing to do with this discussion. I am talking about the point that I wanted to make the decision not knowing which way is the right way. Am I clear?
Yes. You BELIEVE that 'that decision', at that time, was made ABSOLUTELY FREELY, correct?

The MAIN UNFORTUNATE PART, however, IS; you were ALREADY under the INFLUENCE/BIAS of there was a 'right' and a 'wrong' way. Which you have just CLEARLY SHOWN and PROVEN in what you just CLEARLY WROTE HERE.

Also, what makes this all the more HUMOROUS to watch and observe is that what you are 'trying to' say and CLAIM here can be done so much MORE EASILY and SIMPLY.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:49 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:36 am
YOUR PAST EXPERIENCES which INFLUENCED you to WHERE you WANTED to be.
I am talking about the point that I wanted to make a decision about the trail that I get not knowing which one is correct.
Okay. So you had NO intention of getting ANYWHERE, when you were at that junction and where you were making a decision, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:49 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:36 am

WHEN you made YOUR DECISION on which trail to go down, where you COMPLETELY FREE/INDEPENDENT of ANY BIAS? Or, were you WANTING to get to some particular place?

Your Honest answer here, like EVERYWHERE ELSE, would be much appreciated.
I wanted to get to a particular place but I did not know how since I didn't know which trail is the correct one.
So, to you there WAS "a correct trail" and thus "an incorrect trail" ALSO, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:49 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:36 am

IF, to 'you', you BELIEVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY that 'that decision' was a COMPLETELY and UTTERLY 'free decision', then OKAY.

I will just leave you with that BELIEF.
It is what I think. And it is correct.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:36 am

But I DO UNDERSTAND TOTALLY, that 'you' are 'trying to' define 'free' in the way you do here. I also TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that 'you' HAVE TO define 'things' in VERY PARTICULAR WAYS. I also TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that you HAVE TO DO this because you have a VERY STRONG BELIEF that you are 'trying' your hardest to maintain and hold onto.

I also TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that you are doing this because if just one of your views/beliefs are WRONG, and thus are SHATTERED, then EVERY thing else you ASSUME and BELIEVE here is true will ALSO SHATTER into tiny little pieces.

Oh, and by the way, 'you', human beings, do HAVE 'free will'.

You, unfortunately, are just NOT YET able to EXPLAIN 'it' nor SEE 'it', for its True potential.

Also, and furthermore, EXPLAINING what thee True 'free will' ACTUALLY IS is FAR SIMPLER and FAR EASIER than how you have attempted to here.
Off-topic.
You don't understand the basics.
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bahman
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:29 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:52 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:31 am

'I' am talking about 'free will' in the way that FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth here, which EVERY one could agree with and accept.
I am talking about free will given the definition. What you are talking about?
But you said it was, "off-topic".

Which can be just ANOTHER TACTIC that 'you', adult human beings, say and use when you are STUCK in NOT being able to back up and support your views and CLAIMS.

The exact same thing can NOT be, logically, "off-topic", but then, suddenly, back "on-topic", just because one in a discussion CHOOSES it is.
What is the definition of free will in your opinion?
Age
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:35 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:29 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:52 am
I am talking about free will given the definition. What you are talking about?
But you said it was, "off-topic".

Which can be just ANOTHER TACTIC that 'you', adult human beings, say and use when you are STUCK in NOT being able to back up and support your views and CLAIMS.

The exact same thing can NOT be, logically, "off-topic", but then, suddenly, back "on-topic", just because one in a discussion CHOOSES it is.
What is the definition of free will in your opinion?
WOW, A CLARIFYING QUESTION. They are VERY FEW and FAR between.

Having the ability to choose.
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bahman
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:40 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:35 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:29 am

But you said it was, "off-topic".

Which can be just ANOTHER TACTIC that 'you', adult human beings, say and use when you are STUCK in NOT being able to back up and support your views and CLAIMS.

The exact same thing can NOT be, logically, "off-topic", but then, suddenly, back "on-topic", just because one in a discussion CHOOSES it is.
What is the definition of free will in your opinion?
WOW, A CLARIFYING QUESTION. They are VERY FEW and FAR between.

Having the ability to choose.
Have fun with that definition because nobody in here is interested in that definition.
Age
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:46 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:40 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:35 am
What is the definition of free will in your opinion?
WOW, A CLARIFYING QUESTION. They are VERY FEW and FAR between.

Having the ability to choose.
Have fun with that definition because nobody in here is interested in that definition.
I do NOT CARE.

I did NOT bring that definition while making CLAIMS, and also EXPECTING "others" to accept my definitions and claims and agree with them.

You just asked for my definition, so I just provided 'it'.

By the way, what people are Truly interested in is with what ACTUALLY FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

And, from the very little I have expressed so far, NO one would be interested at all in what I have said. This can be CLEARLY OBSERVED, and was done VERY INTENTIONALLY.

Remember, I am just STILL just IN the process of learning how to communicate better with 'you', human beings.

Oh, and before I forget, HOW do you KNOW what definition EVERY "body" in here is interested in?
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bahman
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:55 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:46 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:40 am

WOW, A CLARIFYING QUESTION. They are VERY FEW and FAR between.

Having the ability to choose.
Have fun with that definition because nobody in here is interested in that definition.
I do NOT CARE.

I did NOT bring that definition while making CLAIMS, and also EXPECTING "others" to accept my definitions and claims and agree with them.

You just asked for my definition, so I just provided 'it'.

By the way, what people are Truly interested in is with what ACTUALLY FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

And, from the very little I have expressed so far, NO one would be interested at all in what I have said. This can be CLEARLY OBSERVED, and was done VERY INTENTIONALLY.

Remember, I am just STILL just IN the process of learning how to communicate better with 'you', human beings.

Oh, and before I forget, HOW do you KNOW what definition EVERY "body" in here is interested in?
Given your definition, even a robot is free to decide. A robot however only follows a chain of causality so it is not free. Nobody arrests a computer for what it is doing but people get arrested. So there is a difference.
Age
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:55 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:46 am
Have fun with that definition because nobody in here is interested in that definition.
I do NOT CARE.

I did NOT bring that definition while making CLAIMS, and also EXPECTING "others" to accept my definitions and claims and agree with them.

You just asked for my definition, so I just provided 'it'.

By the way, what people are Truly interested in is with what ACTUALLY FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

And, from the very little I have expressed so far, NO one would be interested at all in what I have said. This can be CLEARLY OBSERVED, and was done VERY INTENTIONALLY.

Remember, I am just STILL just IN the process of learning how to communicate better with 'you', human beings.

Oh, and before I forget, HOW do you KNOW what definition EVERY "body" in here is interested in?
Given your definition, even a robot is free to decide.
Now we are ABLE TO DISCUSS.

Does a robot REALLY have the ability to choose?

And, HOW EXACTLY is a robot 'free' to decide?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am A robot however only follows a chain of causality so it is not free.
Do you follow a chain of causality?

If no, then WHEN and HOW?

Also, you just CONTRADICTED your previous words, ONCE MORE.

You said that "even a robot is FREE to decide", but then you also just said that, "a robot is NOT FREE".

So, which one is it EXACTLY?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am Nobody arrests a computer for what it is doing but people get arrested. So there is a difference.
"Nobody" blames a computer for what it is doing but people get blamed. So there is a ANOTHER difference. But, SO WHAT?

By the way, my definition of 'free will' WILL lead us into 'world peace'.

What WILL your definition of 'free will' lead us into?
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:55 am

I do NOT CARE.

I did NOT bring that definition while making CLAIMS, and also EXPECTING "others" to accept my definitions and claims and agree with them.

You just asked for my definition, so I just provided 'it'.

By the way, what people are Truly interested in is with what ACTUALLY FITS IN PERFECTLY with thee ACTUAL Truth of things.

And, from the very little I have expressed so far, NO one would be interested at all in what I have said. This can be CLEARLY OBSERVED, and was done VERY INTENTIONALLY.

Remember, I am just STILL just IN the process of learning how to communicate better with 'you', human beings.

Oh, and before I forget, HOW do you KNOW what definition EVERY "body" in here is interested in?
Given your definition, even a robot is free to decide.
Now we are ABLE TO DISCUSS.

Does a robot REALLY have the ability to choose?
Of course yes. Have you ever study computer science? Feel free to educate yourself. Please study the following link.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am And, HOW EXACTLY is a robot 'free' to decide?
It is not free given my definition of free will. It has the ability to decides conditionally which is what you mean by free will. In a simple word, a program just compares two states of the affair and do things depending on the comparison.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am A robot however only follows a chain of causality so it is not free.
Do you follow a chain of causality?
Of course not always. I am a free agent given my definition of freedom.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am If no, then WHEN and HOW?
It is an ability of the mind. So asking how is meaningless since there is no explanation or theory for it. I am free. I was not free if there was an explanation or theory for my ability. When? Whenever I like or it is required.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am Also, you just CONTRADICTED your previous words, ONCE MORE.

You said that "even a robot is FREE to decide", but then you also just said that, "a robot is NOT FREE".

So, which one is it EXACTLY?
The robot is able to decide (given your definition of free will) but it is not able to freely decide (given my definition of free will).
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am Nobody arrests a computer for what it is doing but people get arrested. So there is a difference.
"Nobody" blames a computer for what it is doing but people get blamed. So there is a ANOTHER difference. But, SO WHAT?
Ask yourself. You are free. A computer is not free. So your definition of free will is wrong.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am By the way, my definition of 'free will' WILL lead us into 'world peace'.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am What WILL your definition of 'free will' lead us into?
Freedom to act in a situation that the computer cannot act. Not only I can decide in a situation when the outcomes of options are not known, but I can also go against any conditional situation and do whatever I want.
Age
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am
Given your definition, even a robot is free to decide.
Now we are ABLE TO DISCUSS.

Does a robot REALLY have the ability to choose?
Of course yes. Have you ever study computer science? Feel free to educate yourself. Please study the following link.
Do you find some of your remarks and comments condescending and/or arrogant?

Also. I did NOT find what you ALLEGE/IMPLY was in there. So, are you EVEN ABLE to direct 'us', readers, to the EXACT WORDS that CLAIM that "robots REALLY do have the ability to choose"?

If no, then maybe YOUR ARROGANCE is partly due to YOUR IGNORANCE.

But, if you are ABLE to SHOW us those words, then WILL YOU?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am And, HOW EXACTLY is a robot 'free' to decide?
It is not free given my definition of free will. It has the ability to decides conditionally which is what you mean by free will.
Is that what I REALLY mean?

If yes, then 'what' are you basing that on, EXACTLY?

By the way, what I mean by 'free will' is NOT what you just CLAIMED here.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am In a simple word, a program just compares two states of the affair and do things depending on the comparison.
So what?

You appear to be going completely off-topic AGAIN.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am A robot however only follows a chain of causality so it is not free.
Do you follow a chain of causality?
Of course not always. I am a free agent given my definition of freedom.
And when EXACTLY are 'you' "independent of ANY bias"?

How do 'you' make "your" 'self" "independent of ANY biases"?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am If no, then WHEN and HOW?
It is an ability of the mind.
Is that the "mind" that 'you' HAVE, or the "mind" that 'you' ARE?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am So asking how is meaningless since there is no explanation or theory for it.
But there is ALREADY a FULLY EXPLANATION of how. But one has to be Truly and thus FULLY OPEN to UNDERSTANDING this EXPLANATION FULLY.

Also, because HOW the Mind ACTUALLY WORKS this is WHY a FULL EXPLANATION is ALREADY KNOWN and WELL UNDERSTOOD.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I am free.
But 'you' can NOT even answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?', properly nor correctly.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I was not free if there was an explanation or theory for my ability. When? Whenever I like or it is required.
'I' found that 'I' am MORE FREE with KNOWING the FULL EXPLANATION.

But 'you' are RIGHT in that 'you' are VERY DIFFERENT from 'I'.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am Also, you just CONTRADICTED your previous words, ONCE MORE.

You said that "even a robot is FREE to decide", but then you also just said that, "a robot is NOT FREE".

So, which one is it EXACTLY?
The robot is able to decide (given your definition of free will) but it is not able to freely decide (given my definition of free will).
So, quite conveniently, you can make absolutely ANY thing fit in with absolutely ANY thing else here now, correct?

And thus you could NEVER be WRONG, also, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:03 am Nobody arrests a computer for what it is doing but people get arrested. So there is a difference.
"Nobody" blames a computer for what it is doing but people get blamed. So there is a ANOTHER difference. But, SO WHAT?
Ask yourself. You are free. A computer is not free. So your definition of free will is wrong.
What did you want 'me' to ask "myself"?

Also, 'you' BELIEVE that 'I' am wrong, so 'I' MUST BE WRONG, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am By the way, my definition of 'free will' WILL lead us into 'world peace'.
Off-topic.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am What WILL your definition of 'free will' lead us into?
Freedom to act in a situation that the computer cannot act. Not only I can decide in a situation when the outcomes of options are not known, but I can also go against any conditional situation and do whatever I want.
And EVERY person doing "whatever they want" WILL lead to 'what', EXACTLY?
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Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:40 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
Now we are ABLE TO DISCUSS.

Does a robot REALLY have the ability to choose?
Of course yes. Have you ever study computer science? Feel free to educate yourself. Please study the following link.
Do you find some of your remarks and comments condescending and/or arrogant?

Also. I did NOT find what you ALLEGE/IMPLY was in there. So, are you EVEN ABLE to direct 'us', readers, to the EXACT WORDS that CLAIM that "robots REALLY do have the ability to choose"?

If no, then maybe YOUR ARROGANCE is partly due to YOUR IGNORANCE.

But, if you are ABLE to SHOW us those words, then WILL YOU?
Ok, let me make your life simple. Think of the situation that you are offered an orange and an apple (you offered options). You however can only pick up one fruit. This means that you have to make a choice if you want fruit. This means that you need to make a decision. You then refer to yourself to see how do you feel about the fruits or which one is better for you. This defines the situation that that allows you to decide ( that is true since options are possible). You for example see that you like the orange much more than apple in spite of apple be a more useful fruit for you at that moment. This is called comparing. The decision is made if what you want is what the comparing tells you. The decision, in this case, is biased. You can even also make unconditional/free decisions and say that you want an apple.

The above example was a situation that you could make decision (biased) or a free decision (unbiased). The example of trail is a situation that you could only make a free decision.

A robot can make decision but not free decision.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am And, HOW EXACTLY is a robot 'free' to decide?
It is not free given my definition of free will. It has the ability to decides conditionally which is what you mean by free will.
Is that what I REALLY mean?

If yes, then 'what' are you basing that on, EXACTLY?

By the way, what I mean by 'free will' is NOT what you just CLAIMED here.
The keyword free is added to make distinction between decision or free decision. I already explained both to you.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am In a simple word, a program just compares two states of the affair and do things depending on the comparison.
So what?

You appear to be going completely off-topic AGAIN.
That is how you decide. A computer decides in the same way. These decisions are not free though.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
Do you follow a chain of causality?
Of course not always. I am a free agent given my definition of freedom.
And when EXACTLY are 'you' "independent of ANY bias"?
When I decide freely and meditate. When I am on the unknown trail and face a fork in the trail.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am How do 'you' make "your" 'self" "independent of ANY biases"?
Through a short meditation.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am If no, then WHEN and HOW?
It is an ability of the mind.
Is that the "mind" that 'you' HAVE, or the "mind" that 'you' ARE?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am So asking how is meaningless since there is no explanation or theory for it.
But there is ALREADY a FULLY EXPLANATION of how. But one has to be Truly and thus FULLY OPEN to UNDERSTANDING this EXPLANATION FULLY.

Also, because HOW the Mind ACTUALLY WORKS this is WHY a FULL EXPLANATION is ALREADY KNOWN and WELL UNDERSTOOD.
What is that explanation?
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I am free.
But 'you' can NOT even answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?', properly nor correctly.
I can even tell you what I am.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I was not free if there was an explanation or theory for my ability. When? Whenever I like or it is required.
'I' found that 'I' am MORE FREE with KNOWING the FULL EXPLANATION.

But 'you' are RIGHT in that 'you' are VERY DIFFERENT from 'I'.
Of course, you can not have any explanation for free decision but decision
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am Also, you just CONTRADICTED your previous words, ONCE MORE.

You said that "even a robot is FREE to decide", but then you also just said that, "a robot is NOT FREE".

So, which one is it EXACTLY?
The robot is able to decide (given your definition of free will) but it is not able to freely decide (given my definition of free will).
So, quite conveniently, you can make absolutely ANY thing fit in with absolutely ANY thing else here now, correct?

And thus you could NEVER be WRONG, also, correct?
That needed only an elaboration.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
"Nobody" blames a computer for what it is doing but people get blamed. So there is a ANOTHER difference. But, SO WHAT?
Ask yourself. You are free. A computer is not free. So your definition of free will is wrong.
What did you want 'me' to ask "myself"?

Also, 'you' BELIEVE that 'I' am wrong, so 'I' MUST BE WRONG, correct?
Sure your definition is wrong that is why you cannot get what I am saying. I am talking about free decision you are talking about decision.
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Re: How On Earth Can We Be Free?

Post by psycho »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Do you mean that I am not aware of a factor in my decision yet decide? I am simplifying the situation for you with that example. I can even go to the indifferent mental state that it does not matter to me to drink the tea or not.
I insist that you are not aware of all the factors that would lead you to choose not to decide.

If you noticed options for action, there is no possibility of not choosing.

Unless you say that you can also choose which options to discard. :)

But not choosing is also an option. No?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am What is the source?
This is a good example of the discussion about the reality of randomness.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chan ... ndWithChan

Reality would not be random if each phenomenon in it is undoubtedly assigned to a set of specific causes.

My position is that it is not possible to determine all the causal factors of each phenomenon. By design.

There is no ontological need for the presence of an elemental entity at any point in reality.

But this topic also exceeds the present thread.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Why? Where is your argument that randomness is an intrinsic property of reality?
What is the rational process that leads science to ensure that if one removes all observers, then randomness disappears?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Formation of a field.
What originates that form?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Sure yea. And there are systems like the stock-market which are stochastic which makes this branch of mathematical tools useful.
Do you interpret that the indeterminacy comes from the mathematical system and not from the data?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Then tell me why you pick up X instead of Y, X and Y are different roads at the fork when you don't know where these roads take you.
Causal factors of a human action are all the aspects that influenced to direct that action to one of the options.

Unless the individual's nervous system is a blank page, there will always be factors that point to a particular action.
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Re: How On Earth Can We Be Free?

Post by bahman »

psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Do you mean that I am not aware of a factor in my decision yet decide? I am simplifying the situation for you with that example. I can even go to the indifferent mental state that it does not matter to me to drink the tea or not.
I insist that you are not aware of all the factors that would lead you to choose not to decide.

If you noticed options for action, there is no possibility of not choosing.

Unless you say that you can also choose which options to discard. :)

But not choosing is also an option. No?
Yes, Then we go one step back and decide whether we consider options (drinking or not) or not. There are two options here too, consider options or not. They are both possible.
psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am What is the source?
This is a good example of the discussion about the reality of randomness.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chan ... ndWithChan

Reality would not be random if each phenomenon in it is undoubtedly assigned to a set of specific causes.

My position is that it is not possible to determine all the causal factors of each phenomenon. By design.

There is no ontological need for the presence of an elemental entity at any point in reality.

But this topic also exceeds the present thread.
I will read that source later and let you know what I think. But even if there is a randomness in reality I don't think that our decision is related to randomness.
psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Why? Where is your argument that randomness is an intrinsic property of reality?
What is the rational process that leads science to ensure that if one removes all observers, then randomness disappears?
That is due to the nature of free will. Free will is about the unconditional situation when there are options. Free will is what you need to produce perfect noise.
psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Formation of a field.
What originates that form?
Formation exist in a substance and propagate as the Schordinger equation predicts.
psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Sure yea. And there are systems like the stock-market which are stochastic which makes this branch of mathematical tools useful.
Do you interpret that the indeterminacy comes from the mathematical system and not from the data?
I think that randomness comes from the decisions of individuals.
psycho wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:39 pm
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:12 am Then tell me why you pick up X instead of Y, X and Y are different roads at the fork when you don't know where these roads take you.
Causal factors of a human action are all the aspects that influenced to direct that action to one of the options.

Unless the individual's nervous system is a blank page, there will always be factors that point to a particular action.
What I am describing is a situation that your mind cannot decide conditionally. What is left is a free decision.
Age
Posts: 20205
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:40 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Of course yes. Have you ever study computer science? Feel free to educate yourself. Please study the following link.
Do you find some of your remarks and comments condescending and/or arrogant?

Also. I did NOT find what you ALLEGE/IMPLY was in there. So, are you EVEN ABLE to direct 'us', readers, to the EXACT WORDS that CLAIM that "robots REALLY do have the ability to choose"?

If no, then maybe YOUR ARROGANCE is partly due to YOUR IGNORANCE.

But, if you are ABLE to SHOW us those words, then WILL YOU?
Ok, let me make your life simple.
Okay. Thank you.

But WHY do 'you' PRESUME 'my life' is NOT as SIMPLE as it could be NOW?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm Think of the situation that you are offered an orange and an apple (you offered options). You however can only pick up one fruit.
WHY can I, supposedly, ONLY pick up ONE fruit?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm This means that you have to make a choice if you want fruit. This means that you need to make a decision.
Yes, the words 'have to' MEANS and INFERS that I 'need to'.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm You then refer to yourself to see how do you feel about the fruits or which one is better for you.
Who and/or what is the 'you', which you CLAIM " refers to "yourself" "? And, who and/or what could be and/or is "yourself" here?

Also, when 'i' referred to "my" Self I do NOT 'feel' ANY thing about the fruits. Also, emotions do NOT come into play in regards to "which one is better for me". In fact, thinking, itself, does not even come into play about "which one is better for me".

See, the thoughts and emotions that arise within that body are NOT necessarily the thoughts and emotions that arise within this body.

But if you ALREADY understood who and what the 'you' IS and who and what thee 'I' AM and how the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY work, then 'you' would ALREADY KNOW ALL-OF-THIS.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm This defines the situation that that allows you to decide ( that is true since options are possible).
What do 'you' now mean by, " 'allows' you to decide "? Previously you stated that I 'have to', and that I 'need to', decide. 'Allowing' one to make a decision FREELY is VERY DIFFERENT from 'making' one make a decision.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm You for example see that you like the orange much more than apple in spite of apple be a more useful fruit for you at that moment.
'What' EXACTLY would 'make' an apple "be a MORE USEFUL fruit for me at that moment"? Besides YOUR OWN DISTORTED THINKING?

What are 'you' DECIDING 'more useful' on EXACTLY? And what is YOUR 'more useful' thinking in 'relation to' here, EXACTLY?

As I have previously stated, 'you', human beings, will try and say just absolutely ANY thing in order to back up and support your currently held BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS. And this can be CLEARLY SEEN in the way you write and speak.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm This is called comparing. The decision is made if what you want is what the comparing tells you. The decision, in this case, is biased. You can even also make unconditional/free decisions and say that you want an apple.
LOL You are joking here right?

Now, tell 'us', readers, HOW EXACTLY is 'me' choosing the apple here now instead of the orange some supposed and alleged "unconditional/free decision"?

And WHY if I chose the orange, then that would NOT be a supposed and alleged "unconditional/ free decision"?

WHY, to you, is one decision BIASED and the other one is NOT?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm The above example was a situation that you could make decision (biased) or a free decision (unbiased). The example of trail is a situation that you could only make a free decision.
You REALLY WILL 'try' just about absolutely ANY thing, in the hope that 'it' will back up and support your ALREADY held and maintained BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS about what is true, right, and correct, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm A robot can make decision but not free decision.
Okay. If you BELIEVE SO, then it MUST BE SO, correct?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
It is not free given my definition of free will. It has the ability to decides conditionally which is what you mean by free will.
Is that what I REALLY mean?

If yes, then 'what' are you basing that on, EXACTLY?

By the way, what I mean by 'free will' is NOT what you just CLAIMED here.
The keyword free is added to make distinction between decision or free decision. I already explained both to you.
What you have done here is just 'TRY TO' defend and "justify" your ALREADY held and well maintained BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, ONLY.

But what you are REALLY doing is just SHOWING and EXPOSING just how DISTORTED that thinking is within that body.

By the way, the ONLY way 'you' are making 'my life' simple here is by providing the actual EVIDENCE and PROOF that I needed, in order to SHOW and REVEAL just how an adult brain can work just like a computer/robot does, without me being accused of influencing the test subjects. That is; you are SHOWING just how the adult human brain can be so inflicted, and so that it is so BIASED that it can then only work just like a computer/robot does.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am In a simple word, a program just compares two states of the affair and do things depending on the comparison.
So what?

You appear to be going completely off-topic AGAIN.
That is how you decide. A computer decides in the same way. These decisions are not free though.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Of course not always. I am a free agent given my definition of freedom.
And when EXACTLY are 'you' "independent of ANY bias"?
When I decide freely and meditate. When I am on the unknown trail and face a fork in the trail.
And we have an ACTUAL EXAMPLE of when 'you' were on an unknown, to you, trail and you were faced with a fork on that trail. So, now we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of which only 'you' can EXPLAIN of; Why did you take the path that you did?

When, and IF, you answer Honestly, then 'we' can SEE if you were Truly 'free' or if you were being controlled by some 'thing'.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am How do 'you' make "your" 'self" "independent of ANY biases"?
Through a short meditation.
How 'long' is "a short meditation", and, how 'long' does that 'self' remain "independent of ANY biases" for?

It is just for the duration of the 'meditation' itself, or does it last past the meditation phase as well?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
It is an ability of the mind.
Is that the "mind" that 'you' HAVE, or the "mind" that 'you' ARE?
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am So asking how is meaningless since there is no explanation or theory for it.
But there is ALREADY a FULLY EXPLANATION of how. But one has to be Truly and thus FULLY OPEN to UNDERSTANDING this EXPLANATION FULLY.

Also, because HOW the Mind ACTUALLY WORKS this is WHY a FULL EXPLANATION is ALREADY KNOWN and WELL UNDERSTOOD.
What is that explanation?
But you just SAID and BELIEVE that "there is NO explanation NOR theory for 'it', correct?

And, if you BELIEVE that is NONE, then I have found that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Universe that could SHOW 'you' otherwise.

See, while a human being is BELIEVING some 'thing' is true, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, in the WHOLE of the Universe, that can PROVE to them otherwise.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I am free.
But 'you' can NOT even answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?', properly nor correctly.
I can even tell you what I am.
But will you tell 'us', readers, what 'I' am?

Saying, "you can even tell us some 'thing", does NOT necessarily mean that you REALLY can and thus WILL.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am I was not free if there was an explanation or theory for my ability. When? Whenever I like or it is required.
'I' found that 'I' am MORE FREE with KNOWING the FULL EXPLANATION.

But 'you' are RIGHT in that 'you' are VERY DIFFERENT from 'I'.
Of course, you can not have any explanation for free decision but decision
And while 'you' BELIEVE this is 'absolutely and irrefutably true', which you do, there is absolutely NO use AT ALL SAYING nor SHOWING 'you' otherwise.
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
The robot is able to decide (given your definition of free will) but it is not able to freely decide (given my definition of free will).
So, quite conveniently, you can make absolutely ANY thing fit in with absolutely ANY thing else here now, correct?

And thus you could NEVER be WRONG, also, correct?
That needed only an elaboration.
Age wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:28 am
bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:32 am
Ask yourself. You are free. A computer is not free. So your definition of free will is wrong.
What did you want 'me' to ask "myself"?

Also, 'you' BELIEVE that 'I' am wrong, so 'I' MUST BE WRONG, correct?
Sure your definition is wrong that is why you cannot get what I am saying. I am talking about free decision you are talking about decision.
But I have GOT what 'you' are saying. This can be PROVEN just by HOW I have been CHALLENGING you through and by asking you some CLARIFYING questions, which you have FAILED to answer sufficiently.
Age
Posts: 20205
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How On Earth Can We Be Free?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:58 pm That is due to the nature of free will. Free will is about the unconditional situation when there are options. Free will is what you need to produce perfect noise.
What, EXACTLY, is 'perfect noise', to you?
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