Those Who Justify Genocide

[dorothea]

Interesting how few posts relate to the article.

We have someone raging about Israel and someone else claiming the Poles are traduced and even claiming that betraying Jews who stole food was justified. The facts (that Israel is a modest oasis in a sea of backwardness and hate, and that Poles committed atrocities, don't matter). Posters have made the facts clear, but it has been futile.

The article argues that moral/religious teaching is ineffective and that people go ahead and act according to their character, weak, bad or good. Is that what we have seen in the responses here? I'm inclined to think so but wonder what others think.

[Sculptor]

Interesting how few posts relate to the article.

We have someone raging about Israel and someone else claiming the Poles are traduced and even claiming that betraying Jews who stole food was justified. The facts (that Israel is a modest oasis in a sea of backwardness and hate,...

Yes. A safe haven..
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200 ... errorists/

[dorothea]

What are you doing on a philosophy site Sculptor? The difference between belief and knowledge is something Plato and Aristotle thoroughly investigated. Ever heard of them?
Your link would be welcomed by the likes of BLM, Labour, Democrat and other neo-nazis so maybe you should stick to that sort of low-life with similar half baked ideas and total ignorance of life. Israel with Australia, Canada, USA and UK is one of the safest, friendliest, pluralist places on earth with a rule of law and justice that applies equally to everyone however high or however evil.
It must be a great strain to force yourself to think otherwise. Take care.

[Averroes]

What are you doing on a philosophy site Sculptor?

On this thread we have been discussing and sharing information on the apartheid and terrorist state of Israel. We have also discussed the genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israeli occupying forces. And we also talked about the numerous UN resolutions condemning Israel for its atrocities on the Palestinian people. Many facts on the terrorist state of Israel have already been presented here.  Where were you all this time? You have not been paying attention.
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The difference between belief and knowledge is something Plato and Aristotle thoroughly investigated. Ever heard of them?

Yeah, and many of what they took for knowledge was in fact false! But anyway, they are both long dead now. However, we can discuss about them if you want. If you don't want, then that's ok too.

Let's start with Aristotle. Among the many mistakes he made: he argued the earth was stationary, and at the center of the universe. He believed the universe had no beginning and was eternal. He also believed that heavy bodies fall faster than light bodies. Today we know all these beliefs of Aristotle are false. Interestingly, it took about 2000 years after Aristotle for Galileo to challenge him, after his discovery of the Law of inertia(aka Newton's first law of motion). But saddly for Galileo, the Catholic Church felt threatened by this discovery and sentenced Galileo to death.

Aristotle has had some thoughts about women which I will like you to ponder and then comment if you so wish. In the his Politics, Aristotle wrote the following:

Again, as between the sexes, the male is by nature superior and the female inferior, the male ruler and the female subject. And the same must also necessarily apply in the case of mankind as a whole; therefore all men that differ as widely as the soul does from the body and the human being from the lower animal （and this is the condition of those whose function is the use of the body and from whom this is the best that is forthcoming） these are by nature slaves, for whom to be governed by this kind of authority is advantageous, inasmuch as it is advantageous to the subject things already mentioned. For he is by nature a slave who is capable of belonging to another （and that is why he does so belong）, and who participates in reason so far as to apprehend it but not to possess it; for the animals other than man are subservient not to reason, by apprehending it, but to feelings.

In the History of Animals, Aristotle wrote:

The fact is, the nature of man is the most rounded off and complete, and consequently in man the qualities or capacities above referred to are found in their perfection. Hence woman is more compassionate than man, more easily moved to tears, at the same time is more jealous, more querulous, more apt to scold and to strike. She is, furthermore, more prone to despondency and less hopeful than the man, more void of shame or self-respect, more false of speech, more deceptive, and of more retentive memory. She is also more wakeful, more shrinking, more difficult to rouse to action, and requires a smaller quantity of nutriment.

As was previously stated, the male is more courageous than the female, and more sympathetic in the way of standing by to help. Even in the case of molluscs, when the cuttle-fish is struck with the trident the male stands by to help the female; but when the male is struck the female runs away.

Plato too had peculiar thoughts. Plato endorsed infanticide of what according to him were "inferior" babies! And as his student Aristotle, he also believed women were inferior to man. For example in the Republic, he said of women the following:

And can you mention any pursuit of mankind in which the male sex has not all these gifts and qualities in a higher degree than the female? Need I waste time in speaking of the art of weaving, and the management of pancakes and preserves, in which womankind does really appear to be great, and in which for her to be beaten by a man is of all things the most absurd?

You are quite right, he replied, in maintaining the general inferiority of the female sex: although many women are in many things superior to many men, yet on the whole what you say is true.

And on infanticide and eugenics, Plato wrote the following in the Republic:

Why, I said, the principle has been already laid down that the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition. Now these goings on must be a secret which the rulers only know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as the guardians may be termed, breaking out into rebellion.
(...)
The proper officers will take the offspring of the good parents to the pen or fold, and there they will deposit them with certain nurses who dwell in a separate quarter; but the offspring of the inferior, or of the better when they chance to be deformed, will be put away in some mysterious, unknown place, as they should be.

Yes, he said, that must be done if the breed of the guardians is to be kept pure.

Do you agree with Aristotle's knowledge that women are inferior to man and should be subjected to man as a slave or do you agree with Plato that women are in general inferior to man except in weaving and in the making pancakes where they are superior?

Do you also think Aristotle was right when he said women were more inclined to be liars, deceitful and shameless?

What about the infanticide of Plato's so-called "inferior children"? And what do you think about his plans to limit the mating of "inferior" people so as to keep their society "pure" by not begetting "inferior" offsprings? Please feel free to comment on what you judged to be the knowledge of Plato and Aristotle.

In my view, I think that if our society was administered according to Plato's rule, it seems very likely that you would have been left in "some mysterious and unknown place" as he said. Don't you agree?

[dorothea]

You really are an outlier, completely unable to keep to one thread of argument. (You forgot to mention that Aristotle favoured snappy hairstyles and broad foreheads and its relevance to your compulsive insolence towards the Jewish state and your blindness to the blasphemous heresy of Islam that appeals to depraved men throughout the world.) Fancy bringing up infanticide in a post defending Palestinians! Ever wonder why there's an imbalance of male/female in racist, sexist, backward Muslim countries? Too much reality for you? There's only one religion that kills unborn Muslims as we saw in Kabul two weeks ago.
Maybe Aristotle was right about slavery and there are some who are born inferior and who should be kept under the thumb of their superiors - being unable to use reason or rule themselves or their fellows with justice. That is why Palestinians in the ME say they are safe and happy only under Jewish rule and, to prove the point, those who were identified as saying so have been arrested. Like Maysoloun Hamoud who told the truth about Palestinians in Israel, the brotherhood want to kill the truth about their own corruption and depravity.
Character is formed in infancy. By the time an infant can speak it is too late to form its rational soul. My professional opinion is you are beyond rescue. Good bye.

[Averroes]

You really are an outlier, completely unable to keep to one thread of argument. (You forgot to mention that Aristotle favoured snappy hairstyles and broad foreheads and its relevance to your compulsive insolence towards the Jewish state and your blindness to the blasphemous heresy of Islam that appeals to depraved men throughout the world.)

I think that trinitarian Christianity is the great blasphemous heresy. Don’t you think too that the trinity is the greatest blasphemy in Christianity? May I ask you what you think about the trinity? If you are shy to talk about it, I would understand. Many Christians are embarrassed to talk about this. As Aquinas himself pointed out and acknowledge by many Christians themselves, this 4th century CE invented concept is against natural reason, i.e. completely nonsensical.

Anyway, you have not commented on Aristotle’s “knowledge” when he wrote that women were inferior to men and were more inclined to be liars, deceitful and shameless. Should I take your silence on this as a tacit endorsement of Aristotle on this issue too?
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Fancy bringing up infanticide in a post defending Palestinians!

Sure, there are sadly too many examples such that today this is a commonplace.

About two month ago, a Jewish settler was convicted of a racially motivated murder in a 2015 arson attack that killed a Palestian couple and their baby in the occupied West Bank. Amiram Ben Uliel was the Jewish criminal who intentionally burned an 18 month old Palestinian baby to death.

In 2014, among the many massacres of Palestinian children that Israel has committed was the bombing and killing of four Palestinian boys aged between 9 and 11, who were playing football on the beach. The following is a YouTube video of the immediate aftermath. Caution: this video contains very disturbing footage. Seriously, if one has heart conditions, please don’t watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ1R8lMHim4

And there are many more that most members of this forum already know about. But you please make serious research for you clearly seem to be ignorant of the situation over there.
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Ever wonder why there's an imbalance of male/female in [...] Muslim countries?

There is no need for me to wonder on that as I already know that it is common knowledge for anybody who follows the situation in the world. Please, allow me to break it down for you in minute detail so that you can understand (hopefully).

From Wikipedia:

In anthropology and demography, the human sex ratio is the ratio of males to females in a population.
(…)
Like most sexual species, the sex ratio in humans is close to 1:1. In humans, the natural ratio between males and females at birth is slightly biased towards the male sex, being estimated to be about 1.05 or 1.06 or within a narrow range from 1.03 to 1.06 males/per female born.
(...)
Infant mortality is significantly higher in boys than girls in most parts of the world. This has been explained by sex differences in genetic and biological makeup, with boys being biologically weaker and more susceptible to diseases and premature death.
(…)
Gender imbalance is a disparity between males and females in a population. As stated above, males usually exceed females at birth but subsequently experience different mortality rates due to many possible causes such as differential natural death rates, war casualties, and deliberate gender control.
(...)
Countries on the Arabian peninsula tend to have a 'natural' ratio of about 1.05 at birth but a very high ratio of males for those over 65 (Saudi Arabia 1.13, Arab Emirates 2.73, Qatar 2.84), indicating either an above-average mortality rate for females or a below-average mortality for males, or, more likely in this case, a large population of aging male guest workers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio

As Wikipedia has it, the human sex ratio in the Arabian Peninsula is within the normal/natural range at 1.05. The gender imbalance in the Arabian peninsula has absolutely nothing to do with infanticide. If you had taken seriously my previous advice to you of studying seriously, you would have known of the current situation in these countries! And you would have known that in the last two decades these countries has been experiencing a constant rise in the construction industry, with the result that many men from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan went to work there in large numbers. Let’s take some examples. In Qatar, 88% of the population are foreign workers, with mostly men foreign workers from India alone accounting for about 50% of the population itself! Same thing in the Arab Emirates with 88.5% of the population being foreign workers and the Indian workers alone account for 38% of the population. Another example, in Saudi Arabia, 37% of the population are foreign workers.

That’s the reason for the gender imbalance in these countries. In Islam infanticide is a major sin and it is explicitely strictly forbidden in the Holy Quran. God, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning 6:151]

Too much reality for you?

That is a question that I would be justified in asking you! But I won’t because I got used to you having great difficulties digesting and understanding the facts and then reasoning accordingly. I will just continue doing my best to try to educate you.
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Maybe Aristotle was right about slavery and there are some who are born inferior and who should be kept under the thumb of their superiors - being unable to use reason or rule themselves or their fellows with justice.

I absolutely disagree with you but I observe that you shamelessly admit that you find slavery to be right. I am not surprised though by this display of brutal honesty on your part, for I know that in Christianity slavery has been justified on biblical grounds. See this Time article for a book review on the subject: https://time.com/5171819/christianity-s ... k-excerpt/

However, in total contrast to Christianity, in Islam, our Creator the Most Merciful in many places in the Holy Quran encourages us to free slaves. Moreover, our Creator, the Almighty went further in making the freeing of slaves a good deed that brings us closer to Him. In the time of Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) when the freeing of slaves was recommended, many wealthy Muslims bought slaves so as to be able to set them free. For example, the prophet’s father in law, Abu Bakr Siddique (may Allah be pleased with him) who was a rich man, started to buy many slaves from the pagan Arabs so as to be able to give them their freedom. For example, among the many whom he bought was Bilal (may Allah be pleased with him) who was of African (Abyssinian/ Ethiopian) origin whom he bought just to be able to give him his freedom. This is the beauty of Islam, Allah the Most Merciful is always guiding us to righteousness. Allay, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning 2:177]

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That is why Palestinians in the ME say they are safe and happy only under Jewish rule and, to prove the point, those who were identified as saying so have been arrested. Like Maysoloun Hamoud who told the truth about Palestinians in Israel, the brotherhood want to kill the truth about their own corruption and depravity.

I know many Jewish Rabbis who have witnessed and are testifying that the Palestinians are greatly being oppressed and suffering under the Israeli occupying forces. For example Rabbi David Weiss and his people have been beaten for having protested against the Israeli occupying forces’ oppression of the Palestinian people. Here is an interview of him explaining the situation in Palestine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUppu2OHVTY&t=1m38s

The United Nations have numerous times condemned Israel for its atrocities against the Palestinian people for 70 years. No one is happy about the oppression of the Palestinian people except the Zionists.

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Character is formed in infancy. By the time an infant can speak it is too late to form its rational soul.

That’s not true. Have you ever heard of late developers or late bloomers? Start here if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_bloomer

But anyway, even if a child does not develop into a highly accomplished intellectual or an engineer or a medical doctor, (or whatever profession one attaches value to) that does not mean that he/she is inferior in anyway. And that surely does not justify the infanticide of the alleged “inferior children” that both Plato and Aristotle readily endorsed in their writings. But I also understand that the guidance of the Holy Quran did not reach Plato and Aristotle, so that they became misguided in their deliberations. But we, on the other hand have the great blessing of having the guidance of the Creator of all things Himself to guide our thinking and deliberations. Allah, the Almighty has taught us in the Holy Quran that a person’s worth should be judged by his/her level of piety and righteousness, I.e how close he/she is to the Creator, the Almighty. Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:

• O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. [Holy Quran 49:13]

• And it is not your wealth or your children that bring you nearer to Us in position, but it is [by being] one who has believed and done righteousness. For them there will be the double reward for what they did, and they will be in the upper chambers [of Paradise], safe [and secure]. [Holy Quran 34:37]

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My professional opinion is you are beyond rescue. Good bye.

Even if I needed to be rescued you would not be able to do a thing, at least not with the level of understanding and reasoning that you have so far displayed on this thread. I am constantly having to correct your facts and do all the reasoning for you. How can you expect to rescue someone by being so much ignorant about so much? I don’t know what is your profession, but I earnestly hope that it is not counselling or teaching because I would then pity your students or patients. Anyway, thank you for the exchange. Have a nice weekend.

[RickLewis]

As Wikipedia has it, the human sex ratio in the Arabian Peninsula is within the normal/natural range at 1.05. The gender imbalance in the Arabian peninsula has absolutely nothing to do with infanticide. If you had taken seriously my previous advice to you of studying seriously, you would have known of the current situation in these countries! And you would have known that in the last two decades these countries has been experiencing a constant rise in the construction industry, with the result that many men from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan went to work there in large numbers. Let’s take some examples. In Qatar, 88% of the population are foreign workers, with mostly men foreign workers from India alone accounting for about 50% of the population itself! Same thing in the Arab Emirates with 88.5% of the population being foreign workers and the Indian workers alone account for 38% of the population. Another example, in Saudi Arabia, 37% of the population are foreign workers.

I don't wish to distract from the conversation you are having, but just wanted to say that I saw this myself a few years ago when visiting Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates. Dubai is one of the wonders of the modern world in terms of its stunning modern architecture and dynamic economy. (Or was 12 years ago when I was there - my info may be out of date!)

We were told that only about 10 percent of residents are UAE nationals. You could easily identify them on the streets as they wore traditional Arab robes. They seem to be very prosperous although there are obviously variations as in any population.

The 90 percent foreign born residents are themselves divided into two very separate classes, who rarely mix. There are a very large number of expats who work for international corporations, and are highly paid. They are mostly from Western countries such as the UK and USA. They generally have their families with them and live in luxurious villas in districts such as Jumeirah. The wives (sorry to sound sexist) refer to themselves as "Jumeirah Janes".

Then there are the extremely large number of guest workers who actually do all the physical work in UAE, eg working on the construction sites and driving all the taxis. They are mostly from Pakistan and India, but no doubt from other countries too. The taxi drivers have some independence; the lives of the construction workers are alleged to be very hard, many live in dormitories and there are tales of their employers paying them extremely late and illegally holding onto their passports to ensure their co-operation.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

What are you doing on a philosophy site Sculptor? The difference between belief and knowledge is something Plato and Aristotle thoroughly investigated. Ever heard of them?
Your link would be welcomed by the likes of BLM, Labour, Democrat and other neo-nazis so maybe you should stick to that sort of low-life with similar half baked ideas and total ignorance of life. Israel with Australia, Canada, USA and UK is one of the safest, friendliest, pluralist places on earth with a rule of law and justice that applies equally to everyone however high or however evil.
It must be a great strain to force yourself to think otherwise. Take care.

[redacted] And please stop confusing the Labour party with neo-Nazi PCfascism. Those scum are a religious extremist movement, not a political ideology.

And I don't expect you to understand a word of this.


Edited by iMod]

[dorothea]

Interesting, the question of extensive foreign employment in the middle east.

The imbalance between native born residents and guest workers in ME countries has some effects that give pause for thought.
In the 1990s I ran courses for professionals coping with the aftermath of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and the atrocities in which the many of the Palestinian workforce had joined. (There were some reprisals despite Schwarzkopf's policing efforts before all Palestinians were expelled.)

In one seminar someone raised a typical problem caused by PTSD and other psychological problems that had emerged. A school bus had been stopped by a deranged man who had robbed and beaten the girls and their teacher. The first thing, I said, is to list all the people who will be upset or affected and might need your help. We did - parents, other staff and kids etc. No mention of the driver. What about the driver? The driver? She's Bangladesh. She doesn't even speak Arabic.

That was it. The implication was, you don't speak my language, you don't rate compassion or justice! They readily accepted their error of course, but you have to marvel at how easily one can lose one's humanity, and what life must be like for foreign workers in oil-sheik states.

[Averroes]

I don't wish to distract from the conversation you are having, but just wanted to say that I saw this myself a few years ago when visiting Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates.

You are not distracting from the conversation at all and I have the feeling that the one to whom that post was addressed won’t be answering any of the pertinant questions I had put to her. May be she is shy or may be she does not know how to intelligently address these issues. Or may be reading this will succeed in extracting a response from her! Anyway, your input is very much appreciated.

Dubai is one of the wonders of the modern world in terms of its stunning modern architecture and dynamic economy. (Or was 12 years ago when I was there - my info may be out of date!)

Yes indeed, and your info is still up-to-date and more relevant than ever. Please, allow me to elaborate on that as this is a very important subject for the Muslims.

You no doubt already know that not so long ago before oil was discovered in 1966 in the country, the Emiratis were very poor desert nomadic people (I.e Bedouins). There is an interesting BBC interview of the current ruler of the UAE on YT where he narrates the worldly poor standard of living of his people during that time. And in a short time they have developed into the modern economy that you have described. And nowadays, as you may have seen, the tallest buildings in the world are in the Arab world.

Now, the amazing thing is that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had prophesized all this about 1400 years ago. In an authentic narration of the Prophet (pbuh), it is reported that he (pbuh) said that the Hour will not come until we see the barefooted naked Bedouins competing in constructing high rise buildings. This is a long prophetic narration, and I did not quote it entirely here. If you are interested, the complete hadith/narration can be read here: https://sunnah.com/urn/1250630

And this is actually what is happening! Arabs are competing with each other to build the highest building in the world. Nowadays we might not be surprised by this because we have grown accustomed to Arab countries being rich countries due to their oil wells. But in the time of the prophet (pbuh) not only were the Bedouins not skilled at all in the construction of high rise buildings but they were also very poor in general.

Anyway, in case you were wondering, the “Hour” means the end of the world. The “stunning modern architecture” phrase with which you described Dubai (and this applies to the Arab world as well) is one of the minor signs of the Hour in Islam. You may now also be wondering what are the major signs? Among the major signs is the second coming of Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him), the release of Gog and Magog, and the sun rising in the west. Islamic scholars say that all the minor signs have already occurred; and when the major signs start occurring, they will occur in very quick succession.

We were told that only about 10 percent of residents are UAE nationals. You could easily identify them on the streets as they wore traditional Arab robes. They seem to be very prosperous although there are obviously variations as in any population.

The 90 percent foreign born residents are themselves divided into two very separate classes, who rarely mix. There are a very large number of expats who work for international corporations, and are highly paid. They are mostly from Western countries such as the UK and USA.

All these facts are correct. Indeed, UK and USA expats are very highly paid in the UAE, and on top of that the UAE government does not impose any income tax on individuals!

They generally have their families with them and live in luxurious villas in districts such as Jumeirah. The wives (sorry to sound sexist) refer to themselves as "Jumeirah Janes".

I find this to be funny actually, as I think there could be an intended pun in the phrase “Jumeirah Janes”. As you said, Jumeirah is the name of a district in the UAE. But also, as you may have heard the word “Jumeirah” in Arabic can also mean “hot” and colloquially it can also mean “beautiful”! So, these women are probably also intending to say by the expression “Jumeirah Janes” that they are beautiful western ladies.

Then there are the extremely large number of guest workers who actually do all the physical work in UAE, eg working on the construction sites and driving all the taxis. They are mostly from Pakistan and India, but no doubt from other countries too. The taxi drivers have some independence; the lives of the construction workers are alleged to be very hard, many live in dormitories and there are tales of their employers paying them extremely late and illegally holding onto their passports to ensure their co-operation.

Construction work is very hard in any part of the world. During college vacations when I was younger and had more strength, I worked as a construction worker in order to get some extra money and field experience. And I confirm it’s really hard physical work.

I have heard about the situation you mentioned. The UAE governement has since done much to improve the conditions of these workers by passing strict laws to safeguard the rights of workers and impose strict penalties for employers or recruitment agencies that fail to guarantee legal rights. And there are other UAE government initiatives that have been implemented to motivate companies to adopt best work practices on construction sites. Many Indian construction workers is said to have been satisfied with the positive outcome of these measures:https://gulfnews.com/uae/government/wor ... 1.60987119

I think that the UAE authorities should continue in that direction to improve the lives of their hard working construction workers.

As you might be aware these Indian construction workers have it much harder in their home country India and more so under the Modi administration. And I think that the UAE authorities have here a great opportunity to seize to be a model in terms of hospitality to the foreign workers in their country. I find very encouraging signs in the many initiatives of the UAE government to keep improving conditions in this area, for example by personally going out to humbly show their gratitude to these workers and often giving free meals to those at the bottom of the ladder:https://gulfnews.com/uae/government/vid ... 1.65669762 .

Of course, more is being done but this clearly shows that there is an intention on the part of the UAE government to give respect and continue the work for bettering the conditions of these foreign workers.