First Believe, Then Understand

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Lacewing
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:17 pm there is an intense hatred for the ancient ideas which reveal the reality of the human condition. That is why Jesus and Socrates had to be killed. As we have seen, ideas of this quality in real life and on the Internet are simply intolerable for the educated elite enchanted with their imagined self importance. They must be eliminated. The wrath of emotional intolerance cannot accept anything less.
I can't help but notice that your last sentence appears to aptly describe the position of your own claims.

Also, someone other than yourself might wonder where such claims/projections come from (if they are not seeing/believing as you do). Do YOU have an "intense hatred" for ideas other than your own? Are such ideas "simply intolerable" to YOU? Do you have "imagined self importance" based on what you think YOU know? Is there a payoff for you in thinking your beliefs and ideas are important or threatening enough that they "must be eliminated"? Is the "wrath" of your "emotional intolerance" being blindly denied by habitually projecting it onto others?
Scott Mayers
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:12 pm ...

The dominance of blind denial prevents such efforts on a large scale so those with an open mind with the need for experiencing their place within a universal structure share in private to avoid blind condemnation within a place which encourages conscious contemplation as opposed to agenda driven analysis.
"Blind denial"?

This sounds like the present paradigm of women who demand they should be trusted for some horrific accusation of abuse by reverting the role of the acused to be treated guilty before the law with the expectation they then prove themselves innocent. That is, you are crying to be 'believed' simply for asserting something is 'true' to you on an emotional level.

If you cannot present proof of some outrageous claim, the onus is not up to observer/listener to justify why the one speaking is correct. You can apply charity to the speaker's perpective as 'true' to themselves as some sort of polite social etiquette; but to fully endorse absolute faith in the other person with sincerity is not possible.

The First-Believe,-then-Understand rationale is intellectually deceptive and a dangerous precedence that always opens the door for totalitarian authoritarianism. If you are hurt for others not willing to pay attention to your personal assertions about reality, you can't confuse the lack of trust by others as certain distrust. I don't deny people the right to a platform. Yet those who expect default faith in them tend to deplatform all others when given the power to rule the day.
Dubious
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:17 pm
Yes there is an intense hatred for the ancient ideas which reveal the reality of the human condition. That is why Jesus and Socrates had to be killed.
Jesus got killed because he was dumb enough to piss-off the Romans during Passover - mass events in Judea always made the Romans nervous. Socrates was killed having pissed off the Athenians who lost to the Spartans during the Peloponnesian War and needed a scapegoat for having corrupted the youth of Athens. Both were sacrificed to politics and NOT to any truth.

Socrates however, didn't have to die. He could have talked his way out of it; instead he did the opposite knowing what the consequences would be. Jesus and Socrates don't appear to be among the most intelligent humans. If instead they would have died by natural means, they'd barely be footnotes now! The symbolism is all and that's also how we created god, only in this case out of nothing. Turn Nothing inside-out and you get omnipotence. Do that to certain pathetic humans and you get virtual Wisdom Messiahs.

What does all this seem to indicate? The less we know about some people the more potent they are in our imagination. Know the actual truth and everything looks much more mundane, less multi-coloured, wondering more often whether truth as seemingly reflected doesn't itself falter into an illusion.
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Lacewing
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:30 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:17 pm
Yes there is an intense hatred for the ancient ideas which reveal the reality of the human condition. That is why Jesus and Socrates had to be killed.
Jesus got killed because he was dumb enough to piss-off the Romans during Passover - mass events in Judea always made the Romans nervous. Socrates was killed having pissed off the Athenians who lost to the Spartans during the Peloponnesian War and needed a scapegoat for having corrupted the youth of Athens. Both were sacrificed to politics and NOT to any truth.

Socrates however, didn't have to die. He could have talked his way out of it; instead he did the opposite knowing what the consequences would be. Jesus and Socrates don't appear to be among the most intelligent humans. If instead they would have died by natural means, they'd barely be footnotes now! The symbolism is all and that's also how we created god, only in this case out of nothing. Turn Nothing inside-out and you get omnipotence. Do that to certain pathetic humans and you get virtual Wisdom Messiahs.

What does all this seem to indicate? The less we know about some people the more potent they are in our imagination. Know the actual truth and everything looks much more mundane, less multi-coloured, wondering more often whether truth as seemly reflected doesn't itself falter into an illusion.
Awesome response, Dubious. :lol: Agreed!

Humans love to make up religions about all kinds of things! Specific ideas and stories about how things are, and the ways that things must be done or attained. When, actually, MANY things work! Instead of appreciating such vast potential... some people get really pissed-off about anyone suggesting that there are "no set rules". Maybe that's because we humans really prefer our delusions while we're here...even if we suspect that's what they are.
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:47 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:17 pm there is an intense hatred for the ancient ideas which reveal the reality of the human condition. That is why Jesus and Socrates had to be killed. As we have seen, ideas of this quality in real life and on the Internet are simply intolerable for the educated elite enchanted with their imagined self importance. They must be eliminated. The wrath of emotional intolerance cannot accept anything less.
I can't help but notice that your last sentence appears to aptly describe the position of your own claims.

Also, someone other than yourself might wonder where such claims/projections come from (if they are not seeing/believing as you do). Do YOU have an "intense hatred" for ideas other than your own? Are such ideas "simply intolerable" to YOU? Do you have "imagined self importance" based on what you think YOU know? Is there a payoff for you in thinking your beliefs and ideas are important or threatening enough that they "must be eliminated"? Is the "wrath" of your "emotional intolerance" being blindly denied by habitually projecting it onto others?
Give ms one example of intense emotional denial in which I exhibit hatred for ideas In the way dubious has just done. Neither you nor Scott seem to be aware that emotional denial is an attitude of condemnation of how they experience the external world'. If you deny The psychological reality of emotional denial IMO it is your loss. No sincere seeker of truth would ever support the tendency in themselves. Yet the fact that secular intolerance is seen as an indication of intelligence it is no wonder culture loses its depth
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Sculptor
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Philosophy Now wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:47 pm Peter Adamson reviews the relation of reason & revelation.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/133/Fi ... Understand
This encapsulates the poison at the heart of the human consciousness.
The idea that belief is a matter of choice and not evidence.
I am quite frankly horrified that PN is peddling this travesty.
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 am
Philosophy Now wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:47 pm Peter Adamson reviews the relation of reason & revelation.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/133/Fi ... Understand
This encapsulates the poison at the heart of the human consciousness.
The idea that belief is a matter of choice and not evidence.
I am quite frankly horrified that PN is peddling this travesty.
Communism is a good example of this. People believe in it as a matter of choice yet there is no evidence to support it. A sincere intelligent person will wonder if the source of their belief is reality based or self deception..
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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It seems frightening to me that human life has no objective meaning and purpose for most. People create their own reality regardless if it is political or religious. Only a minority have the need, will and the courage to inwardly sense the greater good beyond the domain of beliefs and make the necessary efforts to free themselves from the prison of blind denial and beliefs so as to approach "understanding."
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Lacewing
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm It seems frightening to me that human life has no objective meaning and purpose for most. People create their own reality
Don't be frightened, Nick. Isn't it wonderful that there's such magnificent creative potential for all of us in a VAST universe that is not limited/defined by any one set of small self-serving human ideas, stories, and judgments?
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm Only a minority have the need, will and the courage to inwardly sense the greater good beyond the domain of beliefs and make the necessary efforts to free themselves from the prison of blind denial and beliefs so as to approach "understanding."
That "minority" is creating such a reality/story/meaning/purpose for themselves -- which yes, I can see, requires a need, will, and courage to endure what is being created. But the payoff is to proclaim being a warrior in your own battle story! Very exciting.
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Sculptor
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:12 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 am
Philosophy Now wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:47 pm Peter Adamson reviews the relation of reason & revelation.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/133/Fi ... Understand
This encapsulates the poison at the heart of the human consciousness.
The idea that belief is a matter of choice and not evidence.
I am quite frankly horrified that PN is peddling this travesty.
Communism is a good example of this. People believe in it as a matter of choice yet there is no evidence to support it. A sincere intelligent person will wonder if the source of their belief is reality based or self deception..
Religion is the example of this.
The problem with politics left or right is that people use it as a substitute for religion.
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Sculptor
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm It seems frightening to me that human life has no objective meaning and purpose for most. People create their own reality regardless if it is political or religious. Only a minority have the need, will and the courage to inwardly sense the greater good beyond the domain of beliefs and make the necessary efforts to free themselves from the prison of blind denial and beliefs so as to approach "understanding."
Looks like more self deception
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:26 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm It seems frightening to me that human life has no objective meaning and purpose for most. People create their own reality regardless if it is political or religious. Only a minority have the need, will and the courage to inwardly sense the greater good beyond the domain of beliefs and make the necessary efforts to free themselves from the prison of blind denial and beliefs so as to approach "understanding."
Looks like more self deception
Another one who believes there is no white light but only colors. There is no whole but only fractions. There is no truth but only partial truths. It is the way of the world
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Lacewing wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:35 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm It seems frightening to me that human life has no objective meaning and purpose for most. People create their own reality
Don't be frightened, Nick. Isn't it wonderful that there's such magnificent creative potential for all of us in a VAST universe that is not limited/defined by any one set of small self-serving human ideas, stories, and judgments?
Nick_A wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:24 pm Only a minority have the need, will and the courage to inwardly sense the greater good beyond the domain of beliefs and make the necessary efforts to free themselves from the prison of blind denial and beliefs so as to approach "understanding."
That "minority" is creating such a reality/story/meaning/purpose for themselves -- which yes, I can see, requires a need, will, and courage to endure what is being created. But the payoff is to proclaim being a warrior in your own battle story! Very exciting.
From Simone Weil's essay "The Iliad, or The Poem of Force" as recorded in Wikipedia

"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to."

She proceeds to define force as that which turns anyone subjected to it into a thing – at worst, into a corpse. Weil discusses the emotional and psychological violence one suffers if forced to submit to force even when not physically hurt, holding up the slave and the supplicant as examples. She goes on to say force is dangerous not just to the victim, but to whoever controls it, as it intoxicates, partly by numbing the senses of reason and pity. Force thus can turn even its possessor into a thing – an unthinking automaton driven by rage or lust. The essay relates how the Iliad suggests that no one truly controls force; as everyone in the poem, even the mighty Achilles and Agamemnon, suffer at least briefly when the force of events turns against them. Weil says only by using force in moderation can one escape its ill effects, but that the restraint to do this is very rarely found, and is only a means of temporary escape from force's inevitable heft.

You are closed to the reality of your slavery to force. You prefer remaining enchanted by your imagination. You are not alone. the world depends on this enchantment to continue its cycles Of course the minority who awaken us to the reality of the human condition must be hated for disturbing the peace
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Lacewing
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

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Nick_A wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:21 am You are closed to the reality of your slavery to force. You prefer remaining enchanted by your imagination. You are not alone. the world depends on this enchantment to continue its cycles Of course the minority who awaken us to the reality of the human condition must be hated for disturbing the peace
Too much rabid psychobabble you're trying to project, Nick. I'm sure nobody hates you. More like pity. You're just not that compelling enough to raise a temperature over. And you've not presented anything convincing. You talk about what you and a minority can see/know that no one else does... and blah blah blah, boo hoo… you're the one who expresses fear. I think that should be a sign to you... but no, apparently it's part of the suffering and tribulation of your martyr package.

You wrote: "You are closed to the reality of your slavery to force. You prefer remaining enchanted by your imagination. You are not alone. the world depends on this enchantment to continue its cycles" -- that really sounds like it's describing yourself. Can you see it? Or can you only project it?
Nick_A
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Re: First Believe, Then Understand

Post by Nick_A »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:58 am
Nick_A wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:21 am You are closed to the reality of your slavery to force. You prefer remaining enchanted by your imagination. You are not alone. the world depends on this enchantment to continue its cycles Of course the minority who awaken us to the reality of the human condition must be hated for disturbing the peace
Too much rabid psychobabble you're trying to project, Nick. I'm sure nobody hates you. More like pity. You're just not that compelling enough to raise a temperature over. And you've not presented anything convincing. You talk about what you and a minority can see/know that no one else does... and blah blah blah, boo hoo… you're the one who expresses fear. I think that should be a sign to you... but no, apparently it's part of the suffering and tribulation of your martyr package.

You wrote: "You are closed to the reality of your slavery to force. You prefer remaining enchanted by your imagination. You are not alone. the world depends on this enchantment to continue its cycles" -- that really sounds like it's describing yourself. Can you see it? Or can you only project it?
Why focus on me? I am describing what people far greater than me have come to realize. Many are drawn to psychological slavery to make life bearable while denying objective human meaning and purpose. The most hated machine is the alarm clock. No one wants their sleep disturbed. It's not me that is hated but the ideas I support. Even though such ideas are hated, all those realizing the value of philosophy have the obligation to keep them alive for the sake of those who can profit from them.

You are content with enchantment and I support the seekers of truth who are drawn to sacrifice it along with the attractions to blind belief and blind denial for the experience of truth. Is it any wonder why such ideas must be hated?
Last edited by Nick_A on Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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