Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Sculptor wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:36 amYou two should read the article.
Or you could just run along and come back when you know what you are talking about.
I won't hold my breath.
As it happens, I wrote the article. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, I recommend you complain vigorously to those charlatans at Philosophy Now who saw fit to publish it.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:36 amYou two should read the article.
Or you could just run along and come back when you know what you are talking about.
I won't hold my breath.
As it happens, I wrote the article. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, I recommend you complain vigorously to those charlatans at Philosophy Now who saw fit to publish it.
I did not know that PN entertained morons.
uwot
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Sculptor wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:54 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:44 pmAs it happens, I wrote the article. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, I recommend you complain vigorously to those charlatans at Philosophy Now who saw fit to publish it.
I did not know that PN entertained morons.
Really? Do you understand that the sales of the magazine funds this forum? Every member of the forum is entertained by Philosophy Now. If morons like me didn't write the articles, there would be no magazine and therefore no PN Forum. If you know better than me, and value this forum, you should consider submitting 3000 to 4500 words to the editors Grant and Rick, which could help the whole shebang keep rolling.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:09 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:54 pm
uwot wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:44 pmAs it happens, I wrote the article. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, I recommend you complain vigorously to those charlatans at Philosophy Now who saw fit to publish it.
I did not know that PN entertained morons.
Really? Do you understand that the sales of the magazine funds this forum? Every member of the forum is entertained by Philosophy Now. If morons like me didn't write the articles, there would be no magazine and therefore no PN Forum. If you know better than me, and value this forum, you should consider submitting 3000 to 4500 words to the editors Grant and Rick, which could help the whole shebang keep rolling.
If you care so much then why are you such a dick?
uwot
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Sculptor wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:05 amIf you care so much then why are you such a dick?
Well, it doesn't really matter what anyone says; lots of people will disagree. And it doesn't really matter how you say it; lots of people will find it ugly. If you commit something to print, you have to accept that at least some of the readers will think you're a dick.
Age
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:17 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:51 amJust because Newton still has limited useage is not enough to dispense with Kuhn's thesis.
Not that your point relates directly to my previous post.
Well, even Kuhn didn't believe that new paradigms always completely replace old ones. The point is that even science, which does relate primarily to the physical world, can have co-existing competing paradigms - relativity and quantum mechanics, for example.
These, so called, "competing paradigms" only exist because some of 'your', human beings', interpretations are just PLAIN WRONG.

The reason WHY 'you', human beings, in the days when this was written, could NOT YET unify, so called, "relativity" and "quantum mechanics" is just PLAIN OBVIOUS.

What is Wrong, and what is Right, in your interpretations of BOTH, and of ALL things in fact, can be clearly shown and expressed, if, and when, any one of 'you' expresses clearly how you interpret 'things'.

See, there is NO, actual, "competition" in Life, Itself, other than among 'your', human being, views, (and physical activities).

The, so called, "GUT" will and does reveal this Fact.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:11 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:38 pmDo you not think one is going to have to win out in the end?
Where is Phlogistan theory; theory of the Humours; Steady State theory; Lamarkism; Darwins gemules etc
All dead and buried. Yeah, that was the basic premise of Popper's falsification and of course some hypotheses are demonstrably wrong. The thing is that most physicists make a living by making things happen and if, for example, the mathematics of Newton's law of universal gravitation will get the job done, no one is going to worry that the idea of absolute and empty space it's based on is known to be untrue - it's that general rule that leads more pragmatic physicists to say philosophy is useless. Since Kuhn, Hume's critique of causality has morphed into underdetermination. Simply put; while human science might prove some theories wrong, human ingenuity will always be able to come up with alternative theories which explain exactly the same phenomena equally well.
If, so called, "human science" is proving some theories wrong, then do not forget that ALL of those theories were arrived at by, so called, "human ingenuity".
uwot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:11 am The other thing is whether a theory will predict all future observations; you can't know that until you have observed all future observations. So even if we do get to The Truth, we won't know it.
LOL the CONTRADICTION here is hilarious.

Once you have arrived at thee Truth, then you KNOW It.

By definition, you have to KNOW, 'for sure', to be able to get to thee Truth.

By the way, 'theories' will NEVER get you to thee Truth. In fact, theories detract you from thee Truth, as can be clearly evidenced and proven throughout human history hitherto.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Dubious wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:51 am
uwot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:11 am Simply put; while human science might prove some theories wrong, human ingenuity will always be able to come up with alternative theories which explain exactly the same phenomena equally well. The other thing is whether a theory will predict all future observations; you can't know that until you have observed all future observations. So even if we do get to The Truth, we won't know it.
That's pretty close to how I think of it as well. Truth is the most undiscoverable thing there is therefore to progress we need not consider it overtly and only declare something true if it fits the data.
I suggest only declaring something true 'that' what is actually true.

See, 'you', human beings, have a tendency to interpret the 'data', to fit in what you sometimes already believe is true.

And, 'you' make 'your' beliefs based on what you have previously observed, and/or experienced, and we all, in this forum, know that what 'you', human beings observe and/or experience and believe is not necessarily true at all. For example, observing a flat earth, a universal centric earth, and an expanding universe.

Just because 'you', human beings, "see" and "experience" these things, this certainly does NOT mean that they are true at all.

What can be clearly shown, and proven, is that when 'you', human beings, have believed any of these three things, or just about any thing else for that matter, then 'you' will "find" "data", as well as "see" "that", which supposedly "fits" the "data".
Dubious wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:51 am It's the paradigms we create, the reality myths, which move us forward. The Ptolemaic system was as successful for as long as it was because it yielded the results as expected and true to the extent it managed to do that. Truth is as impossible to know as is the mind of god there being no separation between the two...whoever or whatever god is.
Well if there is NO separation, then 'god' is the mind. Or, 'God' is the Mind. Depending on which way you want to look at this.

By the way Truth is, actually, as simple and as easy 'to know' as is 'God', and thee 'Mind.

To express that they are impossible to know is to express as though you know the Truth.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

Post by Age »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:07 am
uwot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:11 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:38 pmDo you not think one is going to have to win out in the end?
Where is Phlogistan theory; theory of the Humours; Steady State theory; Lamarkism; Darwins gemules etc
All dead and buried. Yeah, that was the basic premise of Popper's falsification and of course some hypotheses are demonstrably wrong. The thing is that most physicists make a living by making things happen and if, for example, the mathematics of Newton's law of universal gravitation will get the job done, no one is going to worry that the idea of absolute and empty space it's based on is known to be untrue - it's that general rule that leads more pragmatic physicists to say philosophy is useless. Since Kuhn, Hume's critique of causality has morphed into underdetermination. Simply put; while human science might prove some theories wrong, human ingenuity will always be able to come up with alternative theories which explain exactly the same phenomena equally well. The other thing is whether a theory will predict all future observations; you can't know that until you have observed all future observations. So even if we do get to The Truth, we won't know it.
So, the reason I mentioned those, and I could have mentioned many more discredited sciences, was to draw a distinction between the paradigms of philosophy and those of science. Old science does properly die and the paradigms are fully replaced, but not so with philosophy which still discusses ideas that ought to have been long ago abandoned yet are not.
Will you provide example/s of any idea/s, which, to you, "should have been long ago abandoned"?
Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:07 am Science, once "natural philosophy", is DIFFERENT. And what characterises that difference is that science relates to the physical world and paradigms have to be replaced, philosophy never replaces paradigms, but collects them like a nurd collects comic books; philosophy relates not to the physical world but the world of ideas.

Where we are with science is where we have always been in that there is a hard core of observational stuff, with a range of interpretations upon it; between which there is good hard knowledge. As time moves on the the peripheries of science widen, as the deeper simpler stuff remians unchallengable and can grow. More observations means more periphery means more interpretation, but the core of certainly remians solid. But peripheries are bigger than the core, and competing theories remain.
Two things can happen. Either the some of those questions get answered, and the periphery grows, OR humans simply reach a point where their mental capacity is superseeced by the complexity of the theories needed to explain the periphereral stuff. We may have already reached that point. Only time will tell.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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seeds wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:12 pm
seeds wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:03 pm In practical terms, how do you personally interpret what Schrödinger was saying in the quote you provided?
uwot wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:16 am That space is "perhaps a kind of ethereal "liquid-like" essence".
Ah, quoting the "real experts" now. Very good! :P

However, it's not just space that is "liquid-like," but also reality itself.
uwot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:23 pm '"...space' is not a thing that can be directly experienced, it is simply what you get where there isn't any matter, so 'space' is infinite..."
I'm bored, so I apologize for nit-picking here, but the "space" we are talking about as it relates to Einsteinian "spacetime" is not "infinite." No, only pure and absolute "nothingness" is infinite.

The "space" in Einstein's spacetime is a "real and tangible" fabric that, again, can bend and contort in a gravitational field.

And my nit-picking point is that there may indeed be an unimaginably vast number of universes wherein Einsteinian "spacetime" is the invisible substance that binds their contents together,...

...but to think that such a real and tangible substance could be as infinite as infinity ("nothingness") itself, seems to be based on a very loose (and erroneous) definition of what the word "infinite" really applies to.

(Sorry, uwot. Again, I was bored, and my immediate choices for entertainment were torn between 1. watching cat videos on YouTube, or 2. picking on you. :D)
_______
A lot of what is said here, in this post, like a lot of what "others" have said here, in this thread, CONTRADICTS ITSELF.

And the type of "communication" here in this thread between posters is PRIME EXAMPLE of how human beings "communicated" for thousands of years, which shows, and explains, WHY they were still so confused, and lost, in the days when this was being written.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:18 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pmTHe point is the the "EVIDENCE" is the material reality of the universe.
It's a no brainer. Why do you object to it, and what do you think it is?
It depends what you mean by 'material'. Do you mean it in the philosophical sense of 'substance', some stuff with mechanical properties? I personally think Schrödinger was about right when he said "What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space." I suspect the same is true of consciousness.
What do you think 'space' was to "schrodinger"?
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:49 am
uwot wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:15 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:34 pmIt's called a scientific paradigm, which is what we are talking about.
Okie-dokie. I'll grab some popcorn and sit back while you explain what a scientific paradigm is.
While we're waiting for Sculptor to realise that a paradigm is not simply an hypothesis about the physical underpinning of a mathematical model, yer might enjoy this chat by Noam Chomsky who describes the state of science neatly and quite succinctly. Modern physics is based on concepts like force, energy, mass, field, gravity, spacetime; all of which are extrapolations from watching the behaviour 'physical' objects. 'Physical' itself is widely taken to mean something like 'material' or 'substantial', but for the purposes of physics just means something that can be observed. Modern physics wouldn't change at all if any of the terms were replaced with 'magic'. Anyway, here's Chomsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVFBABFdLXE
What is the concept of 'spacetime', to you, which, supposedly, "modern physics" is based on?
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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uwot wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:50 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:05 amIf you care so much then why are you such a dick?
Well, it doesn't really matter what anyone says; lots of people will disagree. And it doesn't really matter how you say it; lots of people will find it ugly. If you commit something to print, you have to accept that at least some of the readers will think you're a dick.
I was not refering to your printed article, but your contrinutions to the forum.

Tip: it might serve your position were you not to go anonymous, but instead declare your interests honestly.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Philosophy Now wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:46 pm Will Bouwman considers the development of a paradigmatic revolutionary.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/131/Th ... _1922-1996
The main reason 'you', human beings', are NOT forming a 'uniform accumulation of objective truth about the way the world functions' is because instead of just looking at, and thus just observing, what is essentially and actually just is thee Truth of 'things, 'you' look at what 'you' imagine is true, 'you' then just form and create 'theories', about what 'you' guess is true. It is the subjective truths which, unintentionally, is what is taking 'you', human beings, further away from uniform accumulation of objective truth about the way the world functions.
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Re: Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

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Age wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:37 am
Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:07 am So, the reason I mentioned those, and I could have mentioned many more discredited sciences, was to draw a distinction between the paradigms of philosophy and those of science. Old science does properly die and the paradigms are fully replaced, but not so with philosophy which still discusses ideas that ought to have been long ago abandoned yet are not.
Will you provide example/s of any idea/s, which, to you, "should have been long ago abandoned"?
Astrology, alchemy, the four humours, Phogistan theory, geocentric model of the unvierse, theory of the soul.
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