What is Panspiritism?

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Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:25 am
Atla wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:15 pmThanks :)

In fact I find the conclusion inescapable that all dualistic philosophies were recently destroyed by actual physics experiments that demonstrate quantum non-separability. All ideas of actual seperations, divisions are wrong (as far as we can tell), proving non-dual thinking correct and throwing Western philosophy in general into the trash can.

Turns out it was mostly just a 3000 years long acid trip. Except it may take another 100-200 years until this becomes common knowledge, so seekers are kinda forced to go ahead and continue their investigations on their own.
Western philosophy was placed in trash-can by Russell, who wrote of history of it. He makes it very clear that if we adopt his approach to philosophy then it will make no sense to anybody. He concludes that there is no knowledge to be acquired in metaphysics, and it is clear that if we reject all hint of mysticism (as opposed to muddle) in our philosophy then an inability to make sense of it will be the outcome.

It's just poor scholarship. But I feel things are changing.
Yeah there are many ways to falsify dualistic thinking. I meant that now we have inescapable scientific evidence too against it.

Metaphysics is of course fundamentally just an inherently circular description of the world, and can produce no extra knowledge. And it always amuses me that most rational worldview turns out to be some version of mysticism, some version of the perennial nondual philosophy. :)
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:26 pm Metaphysics is of course fundamentally just an inherently circular description of the world, and can produce no extra knowledge. And it always amuses me that most rational worldview turns out to be some version of mysticism, some version of the perennial nondual philosophy. :)
I would argue strongly against your first statement. I expect you're thinking of Russell's metaphysics. In fact metaphysics is a proof of non-duality, as Nagarjuna demonstrates (and as Russell proves by not being able to find an alternative solution). But I'd agree with your second point.

After years of pondering on this my conclusion is that the reason philosophers do not all arrive at non-duality from a study of metaphysics is that it would be impossible to invent it. So most philosophers get as afar as refuting all other theories but then are left with no theory that works. As a consequence they conclude that metaphysics is a waste of time. In past times this was understandable. In our internet age it's just poor scholarship.
Skepdick
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Skepdick »

PeteJ wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 am After years of pondering on this my conclusion is that the reason philosophers do not all arrive at non-duality from a study of metaphysics is that it would be impossible to invent it. So most philosophers get as afar as refuting all other theories but then are left with no theory that works. As a consequence they conclude that metaphysics is a waste of time. In past times this was understandable. In our internet age it's just poor scholarship.
The reason they can never figure it out is because in order to conceptualize what metaphysics is, you need to assume a meta-metaphysical viewpoint.

A philosopher is trying to know existence.
A philosopher is part of existence.
A part of the existence is trying to know existence.
Existence is trying to know itself.

It's at this point where most philosophers go "hey! that's circular". It's not. It's recursive.

Once this clicks it's plain obvious that Atman-is-Brahman, non-duality, Homoiconicy, Holism and John 1:1are all one and the same idea.
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:50 am
PeteJ wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 am After years of pondering on this my conclusion is that the reason philosophers do not all arrive at non-duality from a study of metaphysics is that it would be impossible to invent it. So most philosophers get as afar as refuting all other theories but then are left with no theory that works. As a consequence they conclude that metaphysics is a waste of time. In past times this was understandable. In our internet age it's just poor scholarship.
The reason they can never figure it out is because in order to conceptualize what metaphysics is, you need to assume a meta-metaphysical viewpoint.

A philosopher is trying to know existence.
A philosopher is part of existence.
A part of the existence is trying to know existence.
Existence is trying to know itself.

It's at this point where most philosophers go "hey! that's circular". It's not. It's recursive.

Once this clicks it's plain obvious that Atman-is-Brahman, non-duality, Homoiconicy, Holism and John 1:1are all one and the same idea.
I wouldn't entirely agree with all this but share your view that once one sees the way metaphysics works then it all becomes rather obvious. I don't know John at all well but would happily recommend Thomas.

Your first point seems not quire right to me. I feel it's a mistake to approach metaphysics with any viewpoint. The task is essentially mathematical and my advice is always to just 'shot up and calculate'. Almost every philosopher does the calculations correctly but few can make sense of their results. Russell would be a valuable case-study.

I'd agree that corrrectly interpreted metaphysics leads us into meta-metaphysics, which might be called Yoga, but don't feel we need to worry about this before we start.

I've been studying the incomprehension of metaphysics among philosophers for two decades and still struggle to explain it as anything other than a lack of opportunity to study the whole of philosophy or a deliberate refusal to do so.

It is one thing for the interested layman or undergraduate to be ill-informed, quite another for their professional teacher to be so. The effect on philosophy is catastrophic and the consequences blight the whole of society.

You make an excellent point about 'existence knowing itself'. This is the crticial issue, and as you say it is really rather obvious. It is a problem of self-reference encapsulated in Russell's Paradox, and I would venture to say this is the central and only significant problem of metaphysics.
Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 am
Atla wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:26 pm Metaphysics is of course fundamentally just an inherently circular description of the world, and can produce no extra knowledge. And it always amuses me that most rational worldview turns out to be some version of mysticism, some version of the perennial nondual philosophy. :)
I would argue strongly against your first statement. I expect you're thinking of Russell's metaphysics. In fact metaphysics is a proof of non-duality, as Nagarjuna demonstrates (and as Russell proves by not being able to find an alternative solution). But I'd agree with your second point.

After years of pondering on this my conclusion is that the reason philosophers do not all arrive at non-duality from a study of metaphysics is that it would be impossible to invent it. So most philosophers get as afar as refuting all other theories but then are left with no theory that works. As a consequence they conclude that metaphysics is a waste of time. In past times this was understandable. In our internet age it's just poor scholarship.
I didn't read Russell. Nondualism is also an inherently circular description/view of the world, it's simply the only one that fits 100%, so our best guess is that it's probably correct. But not even that is certain (personally I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it could be incorrect, but maybe that's a shortage of imagination on my part).
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:03 pm I didn't read Russell. Nondualism is also an inherently circular description/view of the world, it's simply the only one that fits 100%, so our best guess is that it's probably correct. But not even that is certain (personally I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it could be incorrect, but maybe that's a shortage of imagination on my part).
The unique feature of non-dualism and a doctrine of Unity is that it states it is possible for any of us to verify its truth. Hence when folks say they know the truth it is approximately always this doctrine they teach.

As you say, however, even if we don't bother to verify it the logic is remorseless.

You might find Russell's paradox worth a look. He proves two of your points. He proves the problem of self-reference you mention using naive set-theopry, and he proves that when one rejects mysticism metaphysics becomes incomprehensible. He is not alone in demonstrating this, but his is a straightforward case that rewards some study.
Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:09 pm
Atla wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:03 pm I didn't read Russell. Nondualism is also an inherently circular description/view of the world, it's simply the only one that fits 100%, so our best guess is that it's probably correct. But not even that is certain (personally I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it could be incorrect, but maybe that's a shortage of imagination on my part).
The unique feature of non-dualism and a doctrine of Unity is that it states it is possible for any of us to verify its truth. Hence when folks say they know the truth it is approximately always this doctrine they teach.

As you say, however, even if we don't bother to verify it the logic is remorseless.

You might find Russell's paradox worth a look. He proves two of your points. He proves the problem of self-reference you mention using naive set-theopry, and he proves that when one rejects mysticism metaphysics becomes incomprehensible. He is not alone in demonstrating this, but his is a straightforward case that rewards some study.
Verify its truth how? I mean we can verify some things like the illusory nature of the individual self, but nondualism in general?
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:30 pm Verify its truth how? I mean we can verify some things like the illusory nature of the individual self, but nondualism in general?
This is the whole message. Consciousness and Reality would be one and each of us would have immediate access to the true nature of Reality.

Hence Lao Tsu's answer when asked how he knew so much about Reality, which was 'I look inside myself and see'.

Non-dualism, advaita or the Perennial philosophy does not ask us to take anything on faith but to discover it. We can verify in metaphysics that it makes sense, solves problems and is a fundamental theory, but to verify its truth would require that we leave behind theory for practice.

This would be why the mystics have little need to argue about philosophy and their view remains stable and 'perennial'. Those who really know their stuff are not speculating. This is the central epistemological claim of the non-dual philosophy, that we can verify it for ourselves. It's just that we may need some faith to motivate the work required.
Last edited by PeteJ on Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:19 pm
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:30 pm Verify its truth how? I mean we can verify some things like the illusory nature of the individual self, but nondualism in general?
This is the whole message. Consciousness and Reality would be one and the same phenomenon and each of us would have immediate access to the true nature of Reality.

Hence Lao Tsu's answer when asked how he knew so much about Reality, which was 'I look inside myself and see'.

Thus non-dualism does not ask us to take anything on faith, just that we make an effort to discover it. We can verify in metaphysics that it makes sense, solves problems and is a fundamenlal theory, but to verify its truth would require that we leave behind theory for practice.
Despite all that, it could still be wrong though, as I mentioned earlier. Direct practice is overrated. (I bet it's correct though, and I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it couldn't be.)
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:28 pm Despite all that, it could still be wrong though, as I mentioned earlier. Direct practice is overrated. (I bet it's correct though, and I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it couldn't be.)
if you believe direct experience is over-rated then you do not endorse this philosophy, and you would have no way to explain how the practice leads practitioners to a view that makes complete sense in metaphysics.

Nobody could make this philosophy up as a speculative theory. It would be like inventing quantum mechanics prior to having any data about quanta. It's far too weird (by our usual way of thinking) to make it up.

I find it odd that you endorse this view but deny its source. Perhaps it illustrates that this view makes complete sense in logic even if we question its origin.
Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:58 pm
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:28 pm Despite all that, it could still be wrong though, as I mentioned earlier. Direct practice is overrated. (I bet it's correct though, and I find it difficult/impossible to even imagine how it couldn't be.)
if you believe direct experience is over-rated then you do not endorse this philosophy, and you would have no way to explain how the practice leads practitioners to a view that makes complete sense in metaphysics.

Nobody could make this philosophy up as a speculative theory. It would be like inventing quantum mechanics prior to having any data about quanta. It's far too weird (by our usual way of thinking) to make it up.

I find it odd that you endorse this view but deny its source. Perhaps it illustrates that this view makes complete sense in logic even if we question its origin.
I was brought there by another route, the only worldview compatible with quantum mechanics is nondualism. I think there is inescapable scientific evidence now.

Of course I also have the nondual direct experience now, and also have experience with many unusual states of mind. But things can go wrong, just think of all the people who falsely become convinced through deep meditation, that there is a certain sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. They may even conclude that only that is our true self and this reality is an illusion.
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:12 pm I was brought there by another route, the only worldview compatible with quantum mechanics is nondualism. I think there is inescapable scientific evidence now.

Of course I also have the nondual direct experience now, and also have experience with many unusual states of mind. But things can go wrong, just think of all the people who falsely become convinced through deep meditation, that there is a certain sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. They may even conclude that only that is our true self and this reality is an illusion.
I would agree with your first point. I would also agree to some extent with your second. Buddhists, for instance, explain God as misinterpreted meditative experience. But I feel you go too far.

You are exactly right that many people discover through meditation that there is a certain sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. They may even conclude that only that is our true self and this psycho-physical world is some sort of illusion. This is what they usually discover and this would be why they endorse a non-dual philosophy. You seem to be dismissing most of the evidence for the view you are endorsing. I find this intriguing.

If you have had 'the non-dual experience', then why are you arguing against the possibility of such experience?

Perhaps I'm not quite understanding what you're suggesting.
Atla
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Atla »

PeteJ wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:27 pm
Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:12 pm I was brought there by another route, the only worldview compatible with quantum mechanics is nondualism. I think there is inescapable scientific evidence now.

Of course I also have the nondual direct experience now, and also have experience with many unusual states of mind. But things can go wrong, just think of all the people who falsely become convinced through deep meditation, that there is a certain sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. They may even conclude that only that is our true self and this reality is an illusion.
I would agree with your first point. I would also agree to some extent with your second. Buddhists, for instance, explain God as misinterpreted meditative experience. But I feel you go too far.

You are exactly right that many people discover through meditation that there is a certain sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. They may even conclude that only that is our true self and this psycho-physical world is some sort of illusion. This is what they usually discover and this would be why they endorse a non-dual philosophy. You seem to be dismissing most of the evidence for the view you are endorsing. I find this intriguing.

If you have had 'the non-dual experience', then why are you arguing against the possibility of such experience?

Perhaps I'm not quite understanding what you're suggesting.
That's beacuse there is no actual sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. In deep meditation we simply feel our own human self-awareness generated by the billions of brain cells etc. but that sensation is localized to the human head. Our true self doesn't feel like anything at all.

I find it annoying how most nondualists don't see through this second major illusion, and don't go through the second stage of the awakening process. At the end of which, it becomes perfectly clear that this reality we are experiencing directly right now is the only real one.
PeteJ
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by PeteJ »

Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:41 pm That's beacuse there is no actual sensation of Oneness, of universal Awareness. In deep meditation we simply feel our own human self-awareness generated by the billions of brain cells etc. but that sensation is localized to the human head. Our true self doesn't feel like anything at all.

I find it annoying how most nondualists don't see through this second major illusion, and don't go through the second stage of the awakening process. At the end of which, it becomes perfectly clear that this reality we are experiencing directly right now is the only real one.
We're talking here about going beyond sensations and feelings so what you say about meditation and Reality seems odd. Are you endorsing naive realism?

I wonder if you're confusing the currently fashionable mindfulness meditation with Yoga.

What you say, in effect, is that you are a buddha. This is perfectly possible but is it what you meant to say?
Skepdick
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Re: What is Panspiritism?

Post by Skepdick »

Atla wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:41 pm it becomes perfectly clear that this reality we are experiencing directly right now is the only real one.
That's one way to neuter all human emotions, memories and desires. Pretend they aren't real.
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