Making Children Moral

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

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Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:06 am

Talk about putting a square peg into a round hole, how can an immoral society be expected to make children moral?

What does modern society primarily spend its entertainment dollar on? Everything that is immoral. Trying to teach children morality is based upon the expression "do as I say, not as I do."

Why should any kid swallow this? They see that immorality is attractive. They follow the adults and don't want to fall for some con job. Morality is indoctrination and if society is not indoctrinated, how are the young supposed to be taught what society rejects? Since we are as we are, everything is as it is including the collective support of immorality.
"The future is made of the same stuff as the present." Simone Weil
When a society is participating in and defending its loss of quality and has no idea how to change the present, why would you expect the young to not want to join the party and glorify sex, drugs, and rock and roll as it descends into forced statist slavery?

Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:57 am

“A system of morality which is based on relative emotional values is a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and nothing true.” ~ Socrates
Why do the adults want to inflict this on the young? Have they no compassion?

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:09 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:57 am
Why do the adults want to inflict this on the young? Have they no compassion?
How compassionate can one be if even ones basic view of "who I am" is so wrong?
If one sees oneself as an island there is a lot of dangerous water all around - a danger that one has to be aware of, that one has to protect oneself from - and so we erect walls (real ones and especially psychological ones), quarrel with our neighbour and go to war...

Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:18 am

AlexW wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:09 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:57 am
Why do the adults want to inflict this on the young? Have they no compassion?
How compassionate can one be if even ones basic view of "who I am" is so wrong?
If one sees oneself as an island there is a lot of dangerous water all around - a danger that one has to be aware of, that one has to protect oneself from - and so we erect walls (real ones and especially psychological ones), quarrel with our neighbour and go to war...
So who are you?

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:24 am

I am what I always was, even before thought came up an stated “I am Alex”
Yes, sure, conventionally I am the person but ultimately this is not true. Now it depends from which perspective one lives this life, from the acquired one or from truth...

Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:32 am

AlexW wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:24 am
I am what I always was, even before thought came up an stated “I am Alex”
Yes, sure, conventionally I am the person but ultimately this is not true. Now it depends from which perspective one lives this life, from the acquired one or from truth...
Which is the I that lives truth? Is it the same I which lives lies or do you have many different Is each taking turns depending upon external conditions?

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:36 am

Can you find a lie anywhere outside of thought?
The only “I” that lives according to imagined conditions is the one you have invented.

Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:51 am

AlexW wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:36 am
Can you find a lie anywhere outside of thought?
The only “I” that lives according to imagined conditions is the one you have invented.
So what good is morality if you don't exist? It seems logical but for some reason it doesn't satisfy. it is like something important is missing. Do you get the same impression?

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:55 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:51 am
So what good is morality if you don't exist? It seems logical but for some reason it doesn't satisfy. it is like something important is missing. Do you get the same impression?
I didn't mean to imply that "you don't exist" - of course you exist, but maybe in a different way than how one might believe he/she exists.
Morality, when approached from a specific belief system is of course no good, it is, as you quoted "a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and nothing true."
On the other hand, morality - I would rather call it "right action" - when flowing from life, from Being itself, can never be immoral. Of course this doesn't mean that someone who subscribes to a certain belief system might not label this activity immoral - but applying a label doesn't make it so...

Nick_A
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm

AlexW wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:55 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:51 am
So what good is morality if you don't exist? It seems logical but for some reason it doesn't satisfy. it is like something important is missing. Do you get the same impression?
I didn't mean to imply that "you don't exist" - of course you exist, but maybe in a different way than how one might believe he/she exists.
Morality, when approached from a specific belief system is of course no good, it is, as you quoted "a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and nothing true."
On the other hand, morality - I would rather call it "right action" - when flowing from life, from Being itself, can never be immoral. Of course this doesn't mean that someone who subscribes to a certain belief system might not label this activity immoral - but applying a label doesn't make it so...
Morality as I see it is simply the secular expression f conscience. Where morality is conditioned indoctrination, conscience is objective soul knowledge. There is a big difference between inflicting morality and helping the young to awaken to conscience. It will never be done in public education since it gets in the way of indoctrination or the primary goal of secular progressive education.

"That is why the most beautiful Church for me is the church of conscience, found in the silence of one's own presence." Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 106.)

If we don't know what conscience is much less how to awaken it, Einsteins church as a societal institution in current times is an impossibility. The hypocrisy of PC wins the day.

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:35 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm
"That is why the most beautiful Church for me is the church of conscience, found in the silence of one's own presence." Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 106.)

If we don't know what conscience is much less how to awaken it, Einsteins church as a societal institution in current times is an impossibility.
I don't think Einstein was talking about a social institution - what he was pointing to is the "church" inside of you - your real essence.
There is no need to turn it into a "societal institution" - it works perfectly fine without such a structure (I think it would actually even hinder it flowing freely)

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:28 am

AlexW wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:35 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm
"That is why the most beautiful Church for me is the church of conscience, found in the silence of one's own presence." Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 106.)

If we don't know what conscience is much less how to awaken it, Einsteins church as a societal institution in current times is an impossibility.
I don't think Einstein was talking about a social institution - what he was pointing to is the "church" inside of you - your real essence.
There is no need to turn it into a "societal institution" - it works perfectly fine without such a structure (I think it would actually even hinder it flowing freely)
You are right. i wasn't precise. I know that conscience is a human attribute but at the same time, it is covered over by imagination which is why we end up with morality. The societal institution I was referring to is an esoteric school. Where the goal of secular societal institutions is indoctrination, the esoteric church or school within society would teach methods necessary to gradually open to the objective experience of conscience.

Experiencing conscience isn't pleasant since it reveals our illusions and only a few either need or have the courage to experience conscience. We need help and the esoteric school or church could provide it.

An esoteric school can exist within an exoteric or secularized church but remains hidden so its quality remains pure for those who need it.

AlexW
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by AlexW » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:28 am
the esoteric church or school within society would teach methods necessary to gradually open to the objective experience of conscience.
I think, to really make a difference, one would have to start at an age before it becomes too hard to turn away from all these ingrained habits and beliefs that lead to skewed morals etc etc. Children are naturally aware/conscious of Life and are only gradually programmed to fit into all the conceptual boxes that modern society wants them to inhabit. If they would be allowed to keep their innate knowledge and wouldn't be brainwashed into unconscious, egotistical beings then there might be chance... but hey... sounds like a grand utopia :-)

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:10 am

AlexW wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:28 am
the esoteric church or school within society would teach methods necessary to gradually open to the objective experience of conscience.
I think, to really make a difference, one would have to start at an age before it becomes too hard to turn away from all these ingrained habits and beliefs that lead to skewed morals etc etc. Children are naturally aware/conscious of Life and are only gradually programmed to fit into all the conceptual boxes that modern society wants them to inhabit. If they would be allowed to keep their innate knowledge and wouldn't be brainwashed into unconscious, egotistical beings then there might be chance... but hey... sounds like a grand utopia :-)
We agree that the effects of blind morality often cause far more harm than good so best avoided but is this also true for awakening conscience. Take the concept of respect for life for example. I maintain that respect for life is a normal aspect of human conscience but the joy of the kill is abnormal. It is a learned value. It could be considered moral to kill in war but offensive to conscience. A student can feel the problem but how does a teacher approach it intellectually?

Now this example is far harder. Would you support or oppose a film in high school that shows how a late term abortion is done start to finish? A student would see an obviously young human being crushed and eliminated. It would be disturbing and touch the conscience of any normal high school student. It would raise questions as to why abortions happen. For example, don't people feel what they are doing? Why not? Don't they have respect for life? What does respect for life mean?

It would provoke questions which would be considered inappropriate for high school education because they are based on reality rather than indoctrination.

So the reality of the situation as I see it is for secular progressive education to support the indoctrination of state supported morality but to avoid anything with the potential to awaken human conscience. Nothing good IMO can come from this.

Walker
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Re: Making Children Moral

Post by Walker » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:25 am

Give them fishing poles, which is a metaphor for give them strong minds, not things.

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