Why Physicalism is Wrong

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Dontaskme
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:57 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:50 pm
Dontaskme wrote:You can’t know it because you Are IT …
There you go again, talking about what we cannot.
The talking about what we cannot is the IT talking ...this is not a person talking, the person talking is a mental phantom born out of the experience...but it’s only ever IT experiencing ..there is no other.
IT being a metaphor for the ocean aka the noumena ...aka consciousness aka oneness the only knowing there is.

..it’s not a “someone” knowing...you are the knowing that cannot be known...aka consciousness...aka IT

It’s really that simple, perhaps too simple for the mind. The mind mistakes itself for the object aka the concept..when in fact...it’s aware of the object not the object itself. Only the awareness of the object has reality, not the object.

You really don’t understand metaphysics do you squire?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:05 pm

QuantumT wrote:It's called the wave function, because the particles not observed, are behaving like waves. Upon observation they behave like particles should do. Observation demands an observer. The delayed quamtum eraser experiment has shown, that instruments are not enough. They need to be read. The reader is counscious. Ergo the collapse needs consciousness.
Ok. So all the stuff about 'DVD's' etc you don't agree with then. So you do think that if no-one is around your house won't be burnt down by my thought experiment?
p.s.
Also does not this 'delayed quantum eraser experiment' point out that that 'it' is neither a wave nor a particle when not observed?
Last edited by Arising_uk on Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Arising_uk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:20 pm

Dontaskme wrote:The talking about what we cannot is the IT talking ...this is not a person talking, the person talking is a mental phantom born out of the experience...but it’s only ever IT experiencing ..there is no other. …
If there is no other there'd be no talking or language.
IT being a metaphor for the ocean aka the noumena ...aka consciousness aka oneness the only knowing there is. …
Again you talk about and assign attributes to something you can't?

But maybe we are talking different things as the 'Noumena' cannot be also known as consciousness as nothing can be known about it, so are you not talking about Kant's Noumena but some other thing?
..it’s not a “someone” knowing...you are the knowing that cannot be known...aka consciousness...aka IT …
I know I am conscious and I know I am a someone who knows some things.
It’s really that simple, perhaps too simple for the mind. The mind mistakes itself for the object aka the concept..when in fact...it’s aware of the object not the object itself. Only the awareness of the object has reality, not the object.

You really don’t understand metaphysics do you squire?.
Certainly do and as such know that you talk about something you cannot. I also know logic and so know that your contradictions are always false.

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QuantumT
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by QuantumT » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:46 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:05 pm
Ok. So all the stuff about 'DVD's' etc you don't agree with then.
It's an analogy. It's not a revelation.
So you do think that if no-one is around your house won't be burnt down by my thought experiment?
Matter (information) is only there to be experienced. No witness no matter (information). Cause, effect and consequence will however still happen in the framework. Ready to be shown when an observer comes along.
p.s.
Also does not this 'delayed quantum eraser experiment' point out that that 'it' is neither a wave nor a particle when not observed?
No. It's all about the behaviour of the information. The information either behaves like matter or like waves. We call the information "particles".

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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:15 am

QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:24 am
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:17 am
No new "groundbreaking knowledge" needed. It is well known that "observation" in the context of QM can be made by a device, with complete absence of human intervention.
So you are completely ignorant of the results from the delayed quantum eraser expriment?
This is just more of you relying on the same myth. No, no experiment, not even that experiment, shows that consciousness or the act of seeing has anything to do with what happens at subatomic levels.
QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:24 am
You are in fact smarter than Bohr, Heisenberg and Einstein combined?
Well, congratulations! When will you get your Nobel prize?
Didn't Feynman get a Nobel Prize? He never showed any signs of believing in that myth of an observation-dependent reality. No serious scientist believes it. Look at the quotes I gave you.
QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:24 am
PS. Saying there's no human intervention in an experiment, is like saying there is no light at daytime. Idiotic!
Straw man fallacy. I never said there's no human intervention in an experiment. That's different than opposing the argument that reality at subatomic levels is affected by human consciousness.

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:46 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:20 pm
I know I am conscious and I know I am a someone who knows some things.
Can you use your logic and talk about what this ''someone'' is who knows some things? can you describe the ''knower''.



Can you use your logic to talk about the following quote?
again you talk about and assign attributes to something you can't?
When you said ''I know I am conscious and I know I am a someone who knows some things.'' ...is that statement not assigning attributes to some ''knower''? ..so who is it that can't do this, according to your logic?

Who or what is this ''you'' that can apparently do what it cannot do? ...as you apparently are reporting this as a truth statement.

Please explain your metaphysical ideas since you have already qualified yourself as an understander.

Now prove your understanding in your own words.

.

The problem is A-uk...as it goes, the tao that can be spoken is not the tao...words are dual in nature, and what we are discussing here is this immediate nondual reality....can you see the dilemma?...it's not that this character here is making false contradictions, this character here is nothing more than a concept itself creating the unavoidable contradiction that is language, and that's the illusory separation right there.

But upon closer inspection you'll see there is no dividing line between here and there except the word, the dual nature of language... but reality is silence. Reality is nondual.

Are you able to look beyond the dual nature of concepts to their ultimate source and see they are an inseparable manifestation of their source and that that source must be absolute and irrefutably here NOW in that there is undoubtedly an Awareness of the knowing of every word, and that knowing itself knows itself as a conscious entity, thus the Awareness must be it, otherwise how could it light up the Knowing?








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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:36 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:08 am
So if I rig up a candle above a vat of petrol in your house and it is triggered to drop into it by a detector measuring a photon from a timed light source you are saying that if you go away you won't come back to find your house burnt down?
The house burnt down is still dependant on human thought..aka a mind.


You do not have a mind. The mind is you, and you is everything and nothing. Mind is the agent, without an agent nothing is known or happening.


''A cactus on its own intends no harm. It's only when we interfere that it becomes dangerous.'' ~ quote from the Good place.

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The candle/petrol did not burn down the house, the mind did.

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A flag waving in the wind is not caused by the wind, the wind or the flag does not move. It's the mind, via thought. Without the thought, what is a flag, what is wind?

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by QuantumT » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:08 pm

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:15 am
Basicly we simply interpret the cotwf diffently. My logic says it's caused by the observer, yours says it's not.
I'm not here to convince anyone, so let's just agree to disagree :wink:

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Noax » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:21 pm

QuantumT wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:08 pm
Basicly we simply interpret the cotwf diffently. My logic says it's caused by the observer, yours says it's not.
By calling it cotwf, or by declaring it to be caused, is already interpreting things.

I personally like the idea of the cotwf causing me, not the other way around.
I'm not here to convince anyone, so let's just agree to disagree :wink:
You kind of agreed to different terms when you put out comments like this one:
QuantumT wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:56 pm
A device!? Think about it for fucks sake! Pull your head outta your physicalistic bottucks!
Pieces of glass, plastic and metal causes the waves to collapse? That lacks sence, logic and real proof!
Implication that your description is logical and has real proof.

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by QuantumT » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:50 pm

Noax wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:21 pm
You have a very arrogant and illogical approach to the subject.
You probably think I have too.
We should cease to discuss it.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm

Dontaskme wrote:The house burnt down is still dependant on human thought..aka a mind.


You do not have a mind. The mind is you, and you is everything and nothing. Mind is the agent, without an agent nothing is known or happening. …
Are you capable of understanding the contradictions in what you've just said?
''A cactus on its own intends no harm. It's only when we interfere that it becomes dangerous.'' ~ quote from the Good place. …
Acoording to you, what 'cactus on its own'?
The candle/petrol did not burn down the house, the mind did. …
Did it. :roll:
A flag waving in the wind is not caused by the wind, the wind or the flag does not move. It's the mind, via thought. Without the thought, what is a flag, what is wind?
A flag is a piece of cloth on a pole, the wind is the movement of the atmosphere going up and down due to pressure differentials caused by heat differentials.

Are you really saying you think that trees did not wave in the breeze before human minds appeared?

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:24 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm
Dontaskme wrote:The house burnt down is still dependant on human thought..aka a mind.


You do not have a mind. The mind is you, and you is everything and nothing. Mind is the agent, without an agent nothing is known or happening. …
Are you capable of understanding the contradictions in what you've just said?
Yes of course, the contradiction is unavoidable, words divide the knower and the known into two separate ideas. This is known as duality which is an appearance within oneness, but knower/knowing/known are always and ever only ONE in the same moment which is only and ever ..here now.

The mind has no name, no location, is not tangible, has no concept of itself, and yet concepts can and do arise within it as an energetic phenomena that cannot be known, but is in fact already this immediate ''knowing'' one without a second.....so the mind which is invisible to itself,that has no shape or form in effect takes on the shape of every concept, ...and while concepts come and go in the mind, the mind is totally motionless, so it's only the thought, aka the concept that is moving within that which is motionless and unborn.

The mind is just another word for consciousness which is just another word for awareness...these words are often used interchangeably...which I suppose can be confusing to the student who is coming to understand the nondual reality that is this here right now.

There is no thing in reality but concepts, all concepts.

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm
Acoording to you, what 'cactus on its own'?
On it's own, meaning ONENESS/BEINGNESS/PRESENCE...or what ever else concept thought uses to describe this immediate non-conceptual pure unborn presence in which there is appearing the sense of one being alive.

Presence is totally harmless, it's forever untouched or effected by any thought/thing that appears within it. Presence aka awareness is synonymous to the sky or space that is never altered or defiled by what ever is contained within or on it. And it's that sure no thing that has to be prior to any other thing to be, the hard concept to grasp is that these things have no existence apart from this ONE presence ALL ALONE

Emptiness is form, form is emptiness.

The candle/petrol did not burn down the house, the mind did. …
Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm
Did it. :roll:
Well in truth no THING did anything, things are thoughts, and thought can't do anything, nothing ever happened, however, ''thought'' makes that which is not happening appear to be happening..and because there is always and forever here now an awareness presence which is prior to thought and is that in which thought makes a temporal appearance....this awareness presence has to be, it is the knower of every happening as and when it arises apparently, everything is known because the awareness is intimately here with itself always. There is simply nothing that cannot be known since awareness is this forever present ''knowing'' as and when that knowing arises inseparable from it.

A flag waving in the wind is not caused by the wind, the wind or the flag does not move. It's the mind, via thought. Without the thought, what is a flag, what is wind?
Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm
A flag is a piece of cloth on a pole, the wind is the movement of the atmosphere going up and down due to pressure differentials caused by heat differentials.
Yes indeed, says thought.
Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:02 pm
Are you really saying you think that trees did not wave in the breeze before human minds appeared?


Nothing is known without an observer present. Although an observer is always this immediate presence anyway, it doesn't have to know anything for it to be..IT IS.

The observer has no birth and death...only what appears as ''thoughts'' WITHIN the observer inseparable from it has birth and death...therefore, birth and death are both illusions, they are concepts that have no reality in and of themselves. Concepts being a transient passing show upon the ever present screen of awareness. The YOU is the screen, the I aka identity is the passing show upon it. YOU the unidentified are watching the movie of your identified life coming and going, but this is the illusion...YOU in reality are unborn and cannot die...only the dream is born, only the dream fades. YOU stay.

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Bye the way A-uk...Dam can't return to the normal typically conditioned programmed way of being in the world that was once indoctrinated into me from birth by my culture parents teachers and peers...that way of being is no longer abiding in me...I was one of the lucky ones who saw through the illusion of others, I broke free from the shackles of the matrix, I'm home now and nothing is going to disturb the peace that is home with the true beloved I AM...there is no going back.

I come to this forum to help put straight the crooked and show that human suffering really can we wiped away for ever, leaving only ever lasting peace of mind...and the joy and bliss that comes with that knowing that we are always loved and held in safety. Earth is heaven, it's the only heaven if only we choose to see it, to want it.

Also, earth is just one room in this mansion, there are many more rooms to experience, watch this space...!!! it's infinity expressing self right now.

.

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:46 am

Reality is that which objectively exists while our own existence is merely a very infinitesimal part within said reality
When we die we will still be within it but will no longer be aware of the fact because we will have no consciousness

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:56 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:46 am
Reality is that which objectively exists while our own existence is merely a very infinitesimal part within said reality
When we die we will still be within it but will no longer be aware of the fact because we will have no consciousness


Well there is no thing aka a someone aka a person that can have consciousness because all things are apparent appearances aka illusions, aka projections of consciousness in the form of ''thought'' inseparably from consciousness which is not a thing.

Only appearances within consciousness are born and die, but consciousness itself is not born, it's that in which birth and death are appearances in and of it, an appearance is the finite experience of this infinite experiencing consciousness...it's that in which all phenomena has it's apparent existence as and through the apparent dream character..aka a human being ...or it could be the body of a cat or dog, what ever shape consciousness takes on via thought. No one is being a human, a human is a thought in being which is thoughtless.

This has to be thoughtless so that thoughts are able to be.

However, heres the rub, that which lives cannot die, and that which dies cannot live...it's a strange kind of paradox residing within unborn reality...it's called knowledge.

.

All knowledge is a dream within the infinite mind which is not-a-thing dreaming it is a thing.

.

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Re: Why Physicalism is Wrong

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:00 am

This has to be thoughtless so that thoughts are able to be.

In the same context, space has to empty to allow it to be full.

.

All the mind has to do to resolve the seeming paradox is to close the gap that apparently resides between the thought and the thinker and realise they are one in the same reality, namely, here NOW the only place there is was and ever will be.

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