God and Evil

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Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:11 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:51 am
Serendipper wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:55 pm
-1- wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:17 pm
I checked. This is the real question:

If God is such a nice guy, why is there so much misery and suffering in the world?
I'll give you what mom told me: because they're living in sin.
Philosophically speaking, your mom missed the part that claims "god is infinitely good". This is debatable, and your mom got the part right, "god is NOT infinitely good". She punishes the sinners. An infinitely good entity would not punish anyone. But god allegedly does. So the bible was proven right: god creates evil. Humans who claim otherwise are denying their belief in god. Because they deny precisely what god allegedly has said in the bible itself. They don't believe god's own words.

How much more heretical can you get?
Hmm... I haven't considered that god creates evil by himself defining what is good which relegates everything else as being evil. It's not that god brought anything new to the table, but he drew a line in the sand.

We can't have saints unless there are sinners and this hearkens back to the infantile self-righteous inclination of social relativity wherein "I must be better than you even if it means cutting you down rather than raising myself up." So that's religion in a nutshell: putting oneself on a pedestal by demonizing everyone else.

The bible says clearly in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Boasting is key and it's the reason there can be no objective good because if one could discover it and practice it, then one would have reason to boast and therefore demonize.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:18 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:01 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:04 am
I can tell you with the authority of a lifetime of experience that there is not christian on the planet who sincerely believes that god created evil. In fact, God is the definition of good.
Precisely. I've known that. And I am trying and trying and trying to tell them, them Christians, that they are wrong, in this part of their beliefs, because their alleged god says exactly the opposite in the bible. Why Christians are not believing the very words their god says first person singular, no mistakes, is beyond me. If they believe that god is the ultimate, then I am sorry, the first thing they must accept is that god says the truth. But all Christians deny that, when they believe precisely what you say, and indeed, they believe that. Straight against the words of their alleged god.
Well, they say "in the Greek it doesn't say that" or "it's allegorical and doesn't mean what you suggest" or "the Church perverted it" or they find something to redeem their own personal interpretation. I've been in plenty of arguments with them as myself a christian but arguing a slightly different perspective.

There are oodles of different sects of christianity. Some insist salvation is possible to all and some declare the opposite. Some say "once saved, always saved" while others believe you can fall away and return 7 x 70. There are about as many flavors as there are people.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:21 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:09 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:04 am
I can tell you exactly what they (Christians) believe: God is all good and evil cannot stand before him.
Well, not all Christians. Your mom is a Christian; she believes that god is not all good, because god is capable of, and indeed, practices, punishing sinners. Punishment not something one does who is all good. Your mother's true belief is a sole exception to the otherwise false rule of Christians.
She would say that God does not punish, but the devil punishes because we are disobedient to God. She has an answer to everything.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:38 pm

For a while I was not sleeping well. Now I am sleeping 14 to 16 hours a day. Don't tell me that's unhealthy. I KNOW it's not healthy.
Barn door!

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:41 pm

Londoner wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:34 pm

But please go on instructing me in a subject you admit you know nothing about.
Yes, sir. (Or madam.) I will now buy your story that "evil" means actually "good", as in God says "I create evil" means "I create good."

Yes, sir. Or madam. Your absolute superiority of knowing "badness" is not "badness" and "evil" is not "wickedness" and "goodness" is the same as "evil wickedness" etc. is overwhelmingly convincing that "good" in English means "bad", "white" means "black", and "liquid" means "solid".

You may now proceed in your overwhelming knowledge-authority that there is good in all badness, and that good is a creation of god, and all that is evil in badness is not a part of god's creation.

You are so full of it that it hurts to read you.

You keep saying that not all evil is alike, and not all badness is alike. Fair enough, that is true. But you can't tell me and hope that I buy, that "adversity", "calamity", "danger" are things that are good; you can't tell me that there is no badness in them.

What sense you use evil in is on a sliding scale; you keep sliding it to the left, sliding it to the right, but you can't take the badness out of evil, no matter how you slide it.

In other words, no matter how you slice it, you're still talking baloney.

You say this is not bad, that is not evil, etc. etc. and you completely lose sight of the fact that NONE OF THEM ARE GOOD and ALL OF THEM ARE CREATED BY THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN according to that god's manifesto.

"I create good and I create evil" you say is not equivalent to "I create goodness and I create calamity"... but you can't convince any reasonable person on this planet that calamity is good,and that it is not created by god.

You are applying a very subtle Strawman here. Your logic works this way:

A has created B and C.

C is not D.

D is not E. (Etc.)

Therefore A has not created C.

This is a Strawman, or maybe more accurately an inverse equivocation. (Two things that mean the same, you give two different meanings.) (Two bad things that god created, you call them different, and try to say that therefore god did not create them. But no matter what badness you subsitute to C, your god still created it. Whether god said "I created good and I created calamity" or god said "I created good and I created evil" is different, is only in your mind and in the minds of so many other Christians. Your god, according to his own words, created badness, no matter what word you put into that part of the translation.)

----------------------

The logic does not work. You showed how "trespass" means different things now from what they meant then. You show how dropping a ball on a foot is bad, but not morally bad. These are specific examples of language curiosities, as language developed. Nothing less, nothing more. You CANNOT draw a parallel between the altered meaning of Trespass then and Trespass now, and extrapolate that the same difference in meaning exits between Evil then and Evil now. If you do that, I can equally validly claim that "faith", "belief", "adoration", "prayer", etc. etc. also meant something different then, from what they mean now. In fact, I can quote any word in the bible and claim that it meant something different in biblical times from what they mean now.

------------------------

But what you ultimately failed is to show was a successful denial that badness was created by your god.

In all your examples of something evil, which you claim has nothing to do with the present day sense of evil, you use something to exemplify that god created these things and all these things contained elements of badness, and no elements of goodness.

This to me shows that you cling to your very clandestine Strawman fallacy: rename the badness, and pretend there is no badness in the action that evil has been renamed to.

You never successfully showed that creations of god have no badness, and your argument (which is not actually an argument at all, since you make no claim other than that evil is not evil) does not hold water. You failed to show over and over again that creations by god do not have elements of badness (such as calamity, danger, etc.)

So even if it is not evil that god created, your god created according to his own words things that are bad; and the elements of badness in them were created by him too.

What are you arguing against? God's own words?

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:44 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:11 pm
It's not that god brought anything new to the table, but he drew a line in the sand.
How can you say that, man? According to the faithful, god created everything. He brought EVERYTHING to the table. He drew the line? Heck, no, he created evil, and he says it so in an unmistakably worded sentence.

Your mother properly picked up on that.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:46 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:38 pm
For a while I was not sleeping well. Now I am sleeping 14 to 16 hours a day. Don't tell me that's unhealthy. I KNOW it's not healthy.
Barn door!
Who, where, and why are you talking to, and talking?

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:48 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:21 pm
She would say that God does not punish, but the devil punishes because we are disobedient to God. She has an answer to everything.
The devil WANTS us to be disobedient to god. From moment one: "EAT THAT APPLE."

So obviously it's not the devil that punishes us.

If you get a chance, you could say that to your mom.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:53 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:11 pm
It's not that god brought anything new to the table, but he drew a line in the sand.
How can you say that, man? According to the faithful, god created everything. He brought EVERYTHING to the table. He drew the line? Heck, no, he created evil, and he says it so in an unmistakably worded sentence.

Your mother properly picked up on that.
Alright then, he brought everything to the table and then arbitrarily differentiated what is good from what is bad (divided the light from the darkness).

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

In that roundabout way he created evil because he could not create good without creating evil.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:53 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:11 pm
It's not that god brought anything new to the table, but he drew a line in the sand.
How can you say that, man? According to the faithful, god created everything. He brought EVERYTHING to the table. He drew the line? Heck, no, he created evil, and he says it so in an unmistakably worded sentence.

Your mother properly picked up on that.
Alright then, he brought everything to the table and then arbitrarily differentiated what is good from what is bad (divided the light from the darkness).

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

In that roundabout way he created evil because he could not create good without creating evil.
Absolutely. He reiterated his intention with this creative process in other places in the bible.

We, humans, somehow attribute infinite goodness to him. But infinite goodness only exists with the existence of infinite badness, or evil, or as Londoner likes to put it, infinite split nails and infinite hiccups. If you believe in god, you must believe he created both, as he is the only one that was involved in the creative process of creation.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:59 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:48 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:21 pm
She would say that God does not punish, but the devil punishes because we are disobedient to God. She has an answer to everything.
The devil WANTS us to be disobedient to god. From moment one: "EAT THAT APPLE."

So obviously it's not the devil that punishes us.

If you get a chance, you could say that to your mom.
I'm not sure I follow you. She presents the situation like: I'll help you if you obey me, otherwise you're on your own and then the devil takes you.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So you either gather with God or you're off on your own. God does not punish, but it's your own choice to go into the wilderness rather than kissing butt.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:02 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:59 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:48 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:21 pm
She would say that God does not punish, but the devil punishes because we are disobedient to God. She has an answer to everything.
The devil WANTS us to be disobedient to god. From moment one: "EAT THAT APPLE."

So obviously it's not the devil that punishes us.

If you get a chance, you could say that to your mom.
I'm not sure I follow you. She presents the situation like: I'll help you if you obey me, otherwise you're on your own and then the devil takes you.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So you either gather with God or you're off on your own. God does not punish, but it's your own choice to go into the wilderness rather than kissing butt.
I am not sure if I follow you. First you resonate with your mother, saying the devil punishes you for not obeying god's will; then you say that the process does not involve punishment.

Your are too scattered here. I can't deal with such widely spread "truths". You must bring your point more into focus for me before I could make an opinion.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:07 pm

"Obey me or else you are ousted from the tribe" is actually a very solid anthropological event. It happens with all kinds of mammalian species where the individuals form hierarchical societies: humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, lions, wolves.

If you don't obey the leader of the pack, you are chased from the tribe; which means almost always certain death, as these species can only garner food and / or other necessities for survival, by community work.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:10 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:58 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:53 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:44 pm


How can you say that, man? According to the faithful, god created everything. He brought EVERYTHING to the table. He drew the line? Heck, no, he created evil, and he says it so in an unmistakably worded sentence.

Your mother properly picked up on that.
Alright then, he brought everything to the table and then arbitrarily differentiated what is good from what is bad (divided the light from the darkness).

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

In that roundabout way he created evil because he could not create good without creating evil.
Absolutely. He reiterated his intention with this creative process in other places in the bible.

We, humans, somehow attribute infinite goodness to him. But infinite goodness only exists with the existence of infinite badness, or evil, or as Londoner likes to put it, infinite split nails and infinite hiccups. If you believe in god, you must believe he created both, as he is the only one that was involved in the creative process of creation.
It may be illogical, but they believe man and the devil created evil via their own freewill. That in the beginning, there was only light and no darkness. I've even had guys tell me the tyrannosaurus rex was a vegetarian before the fall of man.

We can get deeper into this with Romans 9:

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Pharaoh was created specifically to split hell wide open merely to glorify God.

I have not yet met the christian who can deal with the fact that God specifically creates "vessels for dishonour". It contradicts our human ideals of goodness. Why would God purposefully create defective parts? Because without sinners, we can't have saints. In order to be saved, some have to perish.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:17 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:02 pm
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:59 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:48 pm


The devil WANTS us to be disobedient to god. From moment one: "EAT THAT APPLE."

So obviously it's not the devil that punishes us.

If you get a chance, you could say that to your mom.
I'm not sure I follow you. She presents the situation like: I'll help you if you obey me, otherwise you're on your own and then the devil takes you.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So you either gather with God or you're off on your own. God does not punish, but it's your own choice to go into the wilderness rather than kissing butt.
I am not sure if I follow you. First you resonate with your mother, saying the devil punishes you for not obeying god's will; then you say that the process does not involve punishment.

Your are too scattered here. I can't deal with such widely spread "truths". You must bring your point more into focus for me before I could make an opinion.
Yup and that's pretty much the conclusion I come to when arguing with mom. God doesn't punish until he does and when he does, it's not him, but because of your disobedience. If she were logical, we wouldn't be discussing this as it would have been resolved years ago :lol:

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