God and Evil

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:35 am
Kola Abimbola wrote:Indeed, a theist could parry the problem by distinguishing between knowledge and belief, and, thus, claim that his belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God need not be known to have an instantiation. If the belief in such a God functions significantly in his way of life, perhaps, that is enough legitimacy for the belief.
Could, would, should? Who cares?
I, for one, care. If your only retort to an unanswerable logical argument by you is to dismiss its validity by pure insults, not even by a fallacious reasoning, but sheer insults because someone DARED to speak against your belief, effectively destroying them, then that's your problem, Attofishpi. Don't think that your dismissive attitude finds much support on this forum.

You keep doing this; I haven't noticed it for long, but you shatter and break under the weight of arguments.

Please note: this is a philosophy forum, where logic rules. Get used to that. If you want us to behave in a religiously supportive way and you want a forum where you get emotional support for your irrational views, then it's time for you to change forums, Attofishpi.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by attofishpi » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:12 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:35 am
Kola Abimbola wrote:Indeed, a theist could parry the problem by distinguishing between knowledge and belief, and, thus, claim that his belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God need not be known to have an instantiation. If the belief in such a God functions significantly in his way of life, perhaps, that is enough legitimacy for the belief.
Could, would, should? Who cares?
I, for one, care. If your only retort to an unanswerable logical argument by you is to dismiss its validity by pure insults, not even by a fallacious reasoning, but sheer insults because someone DARED to speak against your belief, effectively destroying them, then that's your problem, Attofishpi. Don't think that your dismissive attitude finds much support on this forum.

You keep doing this; I haven't noticed it for long, but you shatter and break under the weight of arguments.

Please note: this is a philosophy forum, where logic rules. Get used to that. If you want us to behave in a religiously supportive way and you want a forum where you get emotional support for your irrational views, then it's time for you to change forums, Attofishpi.

If you want to debate with me, then don't just take little snippets that you can wane to you own desire, take me on for the entirety. Below is what I stated, as yet NOT challenged even in a teeny tiny way by your colossal wisdom. As it stands it proves you remain the forums biggest hypocrite.

Kola Abimbola wrote: What conclusion can we draw from these? Are we now in a position to conclude that the belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God is positively irrational? Perhaps not. For there are still some rational options open. The theist could simply modify his claims by saying that although God is both omnipotent and benevolent, He is only predominantly so.
Who is this 'theist' that must modify his claims? The church is the great salesman of the one side of God (love/benevolence). They certainly do not preach the 'evil' side of God, even though the Old Testament is full of it...so I guess - it's the theist that only believes in what is preached that Kola is talking about (the narrow-minded, shortsighted ones...the stupid ones)
Kola Abimbola wrote:For instance, one could rationally maintain that God is omnipotent and benevolent in issues of love, marriage and the family; but malevolent in issues of adultery, robbery and theft.
But Kola missed the word 'omnipotent' in his mentioning of the malevolence of God.
Kola Abimbola wrote:Note however that a theist who adopts this move would simply be defining ‘omnipotence’ and ‘benevolence’ in a way that suits him.
...and I might add, a way that is a true and accurate comprehension of God.
Kola Abimbola wrote:The theist would thereby be providing a solution to a problem of evil which is quite different from ours.
Ours? Who is Kola speaking on behalf of here, and where is there a problem with regards to the accountability of God and the existence of evil?
Volcanoes are not evil. Some 'men' are evil.
Kola Abimbola wrote:Indeed, a theist could parry the problem by distinguishing between knowledge and belief, and, thus, claim that his belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God need not be known to have an instantiation. If the belief in such a God functions significantly in his way of life, perhaps, that is enough legitimacy for the belief.
Could, would, should? Who cares?

My experience of God/'God' is that yes it has times where it is benevolent with me, and times when it is downright f'ing evil for my past indiscretions where I cross a certain line that has been drawn by which to live my life by. Times where, I admit, I have no right to Christ's 'salvation' for those past indiscretions, with the suffering that that fella went through.

I agree, to believe God is omnipotent and 'wholly good' is irrational.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:19 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:12 pm
If you want to debate with me, then don't just take little snippets that you can wane to you own desire, take me on for the entirety. Below is what I stated, as yet NOT challenged even in a teeny tiny way by your colossal wisdom. As it stands it proves you remain the forums biggest hypocrite.
I am not going to read your tirade. I personally don't believe your religious experiences had anything to do with reality. I am not going to go into taking you on for your entirety. Please don't ask me that, because then I'll have no choice but to tell you precisely and exactly why I think you are a paranoid schizophrenic who can't tell the difference between reality and his delusionary experiences.

I held back this long form telling you this, into your face, but you are getting more and more dismissive with everyone who opposes you. Don't be surprised if I utter snippets at you, then, when you dismiss others' opinions with the snippet, "who cares?"

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Re: God and Evil

Post by attofishpi » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:55 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:19 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:12 pm
If you want to debate with me, then don't just take little snippets that you can wane to you own desire, take me on for the entirety. Below is what I stated, as yet NOT challenged even in a teeny tiny way by your colossal wisdom. As it stands it proves you remain the forums biggest hypocrite.
I am not going to read your tirade. I personally don't believe your religious experiences had anything to do with reality. I am not going to go into taking you on for your entirety. Please don't ask me that, because then I'll have no choice but to tell you precisely and exactly why I think you are a paranoid schizophrenic who can't tell the difference between reality and his delusionary experiences.

I held back this long form telling you this, into your face, but you are getting more and more dismissive with everyone who opposes you. Don't be surprised if I utter snippets at you, then, when you dismiss others' opinions with the snippet, "who cares?"
My tirade? As soon as I challenged the entire conclusion of Kolas, all you have done is attack ME personally, not what I have stated.

If you had bothered to read (what you seem to think is a tirade), you would have seen the last sentence where I AGREE WITH KOLA...duh! Here it is:-
I agree, to believe God is omnipotent and 'wholly good' is irrational.

As far as labeling me a schizophrenic - which you have done before by the way, that's fine, it's water off of a duck's back. One cannot state they have been communicated to from the aether by someone calling themselves a sage..etc..without expecting that.

So by stating that I have made a tirade, and again, not addressing my points philosophically, you again prove that you remain the a hypocrite, and just too plain bloody stupid to see it.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by fooloso4 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:04 pm

The problem of evil as constructed here is based on a construct of God that is just one of many. Consider the following:
If we accept the good from God must we not also accept the evil? (Job 2:10)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (Exodus 32:14)
If both good and evil come from God then the concept of God’s benevolence as well as the concepts of good and evil need to be reexamined (unless, of course, one simply ignores all this and goes with a different version of things). God’s benevolence does not mean that God only does what is good. One might hope to reconcile this with cherished beliefs by assuming God’s benevolence is reserved for the righteous and malevolence for the wicked, but texts such as Ecclesiastes and Job, as well as experience tell us otherwise.

Perhaps part of the problem is the assumption that God is reasonable or can be understood by reason. That is the influence of Greek and later Enlightenment philosophy that overshadows the Jewish God who is characterized not by reason but by will. A God who, it is said, it is wise to fear, is transformed into a God who must be reconciled with reason.


If one is to understand the quotes above, good and evil cannot be reified. Good and evil have no moral agency. They refer to actions, intentions, and consequences that are beneficial or harmful. The history of the term ‘evil’ makes it difficult to see behind its more recent connotations. Alternative translations of the Hebrew are bad, adversity, calamity, destruction, misery, affliction. Evil, as it is understood in these passages, is not the work of the Devil or Satan.

A couple of more quick points:

Good and evil are fruits of the same tree.

Opposites in Genesis are often part of the same: the two creation stories the first a watery out of flux and the second a dry beginning where everything is in stasis until the rains, separating the light and dark and the ground from the water, male and female, man is the dust of the earth and the breath of God, life and death, both blessings and curses and pleasure and pain tied to procreation (literally knowledge) and childbirth (the opposition between Cain and Abel) as well as the painful toiling of the cursed ground that yields food.

Immanuel Can:
But are you equally aware that the Euthyphro Problem is premised on polytheism, not monotheism?
The dialogue Euthyphro is premised on the assumption of knowledge of things not known, ignorance mistaking itself for wisdom. This is a problem that holds for monotheism as well as polytheism. The conflict between the gods is only one of the problems raised in the dialogue. The central problems are piety and justice and they pertain to a single God as well as multiple gods.

Present day "Euthyphros" love to visit sites like this to parade their “wisdom”, mistaking opinion for knowledge.

In my opinion, the real problem of evil is not the question of why there is evil, but the fact that there is evil, that we both inflict and are afflicted by evil. It is not something that can be eliminated but can be mediated. We would do better to stop looking to God and look to ourselves.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by Nick_A » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:53 pm

"God could only create by hiding himself. Otherwise there would be nothing but himself." Simone Weil -- Gravity and Grace
In her usual laconic fashion Simone throws a new wrinkle into the question. God is not in the universe but rather the universe is within God as the body of God. If God were to create perfection he would have to create himself. The universe and the laws which sustain it must allow for imperfection and the resulting effects people call evil.

If the universe is a necessity, what we subjectively define as evil must also be a necessary result. Here is a brief description:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Weil#Absence
Absence is the key image for her metaphysics, cosmology, cosmogony, and theodicy. She believed that God created by an act of self-delimitation—in other words, because God is conceived as a kind of utter fullness, a perfect being, no creature could exist except where God was not. Thus creation occurred only when God withdrew in part. Similar ideas occur in Jewish mysticism.

This is, for Weil, an original kenosis ("emptiness") preceding the corrective kenosis of Christ's incarnation (cf. Athanasius). We are thus born in a sort of damned position not owing to original sin as such, but because to be created at all we had to be precisely what God is not, i.e., we had to be the opposite of what is holy. (See Apophatic theology.)

This notion of creation is a cornerstone of her theodicy, for if creation is conceived this way (as necessarily containing evil within itself), then there is no problem of the entrance of evil into a perfect world. Nor does this constitute a delimitation of God's omnipotence, if it is not that God could not create a perfect world, but that the act which we refer towards by saying "create" in its very essence implies the impossibility of perfection.

However, this notion of the necessity of evil does not mean that we are simply, originally, and continually doomed; on the contrary, Weil tells us that "Evil is the form which God's mercy takes in this world".[54] Weil believed that evil, and its consequence, affliction, served the role of driving us out of ourselves and towards God—"The extreme affliction which overtakes human beings does not create human misery, it merely reveals it."[55]

This is really Panentheim. God is both outside and within the universe. Seen as a necessity, for creation to exist it must be sustained by lawful imperfection. That is why the one constant in the universe is change

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
The good is the light of consciousness within creation. From an objective perspective evil for humanity can only be defined as that which causes the loss of light within our being.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by Necromancer » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:17 am

attofishpi wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:35 am
Kola Abimbola wrote: What conclusion can we draw from these? Are we now in a position to conclude that the belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God is positively irrational? Perhaps not. For there are still some rational options open. The theist could simply modify his claims by saying that although God is both omnipotent and benevolent, He is only predominantly so.
Who is this 'theist' that must modify his claims? The church is the great salesman of the one side of God (love/benevolence). They certainly do not preach the 'evil' side of God, even though the Old Testament is full of it...so I guess - it's the theist that only believes in what is preached that Kola is talking about (the narrow-minded, shortsighted ones...the stupid ones)
Kola Abimbola wrote:For instance, one could rationally maintain that God is omnipotent and benevolent in issues of love, marriage and the family; but malevolent in issues of adultery, robbery and theft.
But Kola missed the word 'omnipotent' in his mentioning of the malevolence of God.
Kola Abimbola wrote:Note however that a theist who adopts this move would simply be defining ‘omnipotence’ and ‘benevolence’ in a way that suits him.
...and I might add, a way that is a true and accurate comprehension of God.
Kola Abimbola wrote:The theist would thereby be providing a solution to a problem of evil which is quite different from ours.
Ours? Who is Kola speaking on behalf of here, and where is there a problem with regards to the accountability of God and the existence of evil?
Volcanoes are not evil. Some 'men' are evil.
Kola Abimbola wrote:Indeed, a theist could parry the problem by distinguishing between knowledge and belief, and, thus, claim that his belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God need not be known to have an instantiation. If the belief in such a God functions significantly in his way of life, perhaps, that is enough legitimacy for the belief.
Could, would, should? Who cares?

My experience of God/'God' is that yes it has times where it is benevolent with me, and times when it is downright f'ing evil for my past indiscretions where I cross a certain line that has been drawn by which to live my life by. Times where, I admit, I have no right to Christ's 'salvation' for those past indiscretions, with the suffering that that fella went through.

I agree, to believe God is omnipotent and 'wholly good' is irrational.
It doesn't proceed from the Bible that evil doesn't come from the Devil who may be primordial as much as God. However, God has created all the physical, the Heavens and the Earth while the Hell of the Devil is home to all (non-ethical/moral-rational) idiots! :D

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am

Necromancer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:17 am

It doesn't proceed from the Bible that evil doesn't come from the Devil who may be primordial as much as God. However, God has created all the physical, the Heavens and the Earth while the Hell of the Devil is home to all (non-ethical/moral-rational) idiots! :D
You brilliantly stated what does not proceed from the Bible. What proceeds from the Bible is what the Bible actually says. And what the Bible actually says is this:

Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Note well: "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Argue with that.

You don't have to argue with me or with any other atheists. Our arguments don't count to you, our reasonable arguments you simply reject, all you theists.

Just argue against the Bible, if you can. Just argue against God, and against God's own words, which say, "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Tell your god he is wrong, he is lying. Tell your god he is bearing false witness. Tell him he is sinning. Tell him he is evil when he states of himself that he creates evil.

Or else accept that he is saying the truth, which is, as he expresses it plainly and unmistakably, that he creates evil.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by Necromancer » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:09 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am
Necromancer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:17 am

It doesn't proceed from the Bible that evil doesn't come from the Devil who may be primordial as much as God. However, God has created all the physical, the Heavens and the Earth while the Hell of the Devil is home to all (non-ethical/moral-rational) idiots! :D
You brilliantly stated what does not proceed from the Bible. What proceeds from the Bible is what the Bible actually says. And what the Bible actually says is this:

Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Note well: "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Argue with that.

You don't have to argue with me or with any other atheists. Our arguments don't count to you, our reasonable arguments you simply reject, all you theists.

Just argue against the Bible, if you can. Just argue against God, and against God's own words, which say, "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Tell your god he is wrong, he is lying. Tell your god he is bearing false witness. Tell him he is sinning. Tell him he is evil when he states of himself that he creates evil.

Or else accept that he is saying the truth, which is, as he expresses it plainly and unmistakably, that he creates evil.
And I counter by saying that the Bible is written by people and that one needs logic and coherency in order to make it meaningful, possible to follow by 10 Commandments and Golden Rule Christians. The people who have written the Bible may have been this and that person with their own wishes for future generations so as to impart difficulties in their time to these. Still God of goodness, I insist. God exists and God is entirely good.

And I cite: Genesis 1:1-25 with link too so people can see for real: https://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html.

By further consideration of the whole chapter of Isaiah 45, I must say that I think Isaiah 45:7 seems written with the intent to instill respect or fear of God in the righteous, the Christians, because it also says "the just God" and several other positive descriptions of God. So, there, you! (This also by my "pet project", The Scientific Bible 2.0.)

Note: (a partly) evil God simply makes the whole Bible to fall apart along with not obeying the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:30 am

Necromancer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:09 pm
-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am
Necromancer wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:17 am

It doesn't proceed from the Bible that evil doesn't come from the Devil who may be primordial as much as God. However, God has created all the physical, the Heavens and the Earth while the Hell of the Devil is home to all (non-ethical/moral-rational) idiots! :D
You brilliantly stated what does not proceed from the Bible. What proceeds from the Bible is what the Bible actually says. And what the Bible actually says is this:

Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Note well: "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Argue with that.

You don't have to argue with me or with any other atheists. Our arguments don't count to you, our reasonable arguments you simply reject, all you theists.

Just argue against the Bible, if you can. Just argue against God, and against God's own words, which say, "I, the Lord, ... create evil." Tell your god he is wrong, he is lying. Tell your god he is bearing false witness. Tell him he is sinning. Tell him he is evil when he states of himself that he creates evil.

Or else accept that he is saying the truth, which is, as he expresses it plainly and unmistakably, that he creates evil.
And I counter by saying that the Bible is written by people and that one needs logic and coherency in order to make it meaningful, possible to follow by 10 Commandments and Golden Rule Christians. The people who have written the Bible may have been this and that person with their own wishes for future generations so as to impart difficulties in their time to these. Still God of goodness, I insist. God exists and God is entirely good.

And I cite: Genesis 1:1-25 with link too so people can see for real: https://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html.

By further consideration of the whole chapter of Isaiah 45, I must say that I think Isaiah 45:7 seems written with the intent to instill respect or fear of God in the righteous, the Christians, because it also says "the just God" and several other positive descriptions of God. So, there, you! (This also by my "pet project", The Scientific Bible 2.0.)

Note: (a partly) evil God simply makes the whole Bible to fall apart along with not obeying the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule.
I agree with what you said.

I am addressing those who believe that the bible is the word of god. If you don't believe that in the first place, then you are like me... you see the bible as a book written by a bunch of untalented literary dilettantes, who for the most part could not put a coherent thought down, or string words into a properly formed sentence.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by Londoner » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:22 am

Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:40 pm

Isiah belongs to a privileged class. He is a prophet. He can say anything and I cannot reply. I am not saying Isiah is wrong. I am only pointing out that we are not equal.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:54 pm

Job is the best prophet because he says "I am not equal to God".

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Re: God and Evil

Post by fooloso4 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:41 pm

Londoner:
Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.
The problem is what has come to be associated with the term ‘evil’. What is evil, as the term is used here, is what destroys or disrupts or stands in the way of peace. Peace includes such things as peace of mind or to be untroubled and at ease. Calamitous or disastrous events can disrupt peace but there are other things that may stand in the way of a person or group being at peace.

Consider, for example, Ecclesiastes 1:14 “vexation of spirit”. The root of the term translated as ‘vexation’ is the same term we are discussing, the Hebrew ‘ra’’ ( רע). It is the same term used for the tree of knowledge of good and evil or bad. As with many translated terms there is a twofold problem: there is no one word that captures the range of its meaning, and the word used to translate it carries meanings that are not present in the original.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:07 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:41 pm
Londoner:
Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.
The problem is what has come to be associated with the term ‘evil’. What is evil, as the term is used here, is what destroys or disrupts or stands in the way of peace. Peace includes such things as peace of mind or to be untroubled and at ease. Calamitous or disastrous events can disrupt peace but there are other things that may stand in the way of a person or group being at peace.

Consider, for example, Ecclesiastes 1:14 “vexation of spirit”. The root of the term translated as ‘vexation’ is the same term we are discussing, the Hebrew ‘ra’’ ( רע). It is the same term used for the tree of knowledge of good and evil or bad. As with many translated terms there is a twofold problem: there is no one word that captures the range of its meaning, and the word used to translate it carries meanings that are not present in the original.
All the ideas on this thread are in the right direction, but the real practical question is "who will protect us from evil in real life". NOBODY is not a reasonable answer.

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