God and Evil

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

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Londoner
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Londoner » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:36 am

-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:27 pm

You are so full of it that it hurts to read you.
Nothing personal?

You would have done better to have avoided the ad hominem in your first response to me, then apologised when it became evident you had misread me, or more probably mixed me up with some other poster. But instead you carry on digging.

I'll leave you to it.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Londoner wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:36 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:27 pm

You are so full of it that it hurts to read you.
Nothing personal?

You would have done better to have avoided the ad hominem in your first response to me, then apologised when it became evident you had misread me, or more probably mixed me up with some other poster. But instead you carry on digging.

I'll leave you to it.
Yes, I got personal. I got personal because you first insulted me, for no reason:
Londoner wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:34 pm

But please go on instructing me in a subject you admit you know nothing about.
I knew the subject all right. The subjec is the meaning of words. How to read a simple sentence in English. This is what the topic is, applied to an instance, which is a line in the bible.

Yes, I know little about the bible. But you can't say I know nothing about it.

And certainly you can't say I know nothing about language and meaning of words.

This is why I insulted you back.

-----------------------------------------

And the meaing of my insult?

I got frustrated by your skirting around by substituting other words for evil, each of which word had BADNESS involved in them, and you triumphantly tried to declare that therefore "I create evil" is not "I create evil". But each word you and other bible transalations subsituted, contained elements of evil. God created them. So how come you insisted that god did not create evil? Again, the fault in your argument lay in saying this: (in a quasi-symbolic form of logic):

"A created B" is not true (a linguistic argument was presented to support this).
However, it is true that A created C.
It is also true that A created D.
It is also true that A created... n.

And C, D, ... n are not B.

Therefore A did not create B.
---------------------------

The counter argument ot this is

However, all of C, D, ...n contain elements of B. All of C, D, ... n contain harm, destruction, things to fear and that cause pain.

-----------------------------

You kept on simply ignoring the counter-argument.

You got personal, and so did I. Nobody did something that the other did not do.

I reject your pretension of leaving this argument on moral grounds.

I instead see your retreat as a response of yours where you must admit to a logical argument, but the argument goes so much against your own beleifs, that you are incapable of doing that.

Londoner
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Londoner » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:16 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Yes, I got personal. I got personal because you first insulted me, for no reason:
My first post in this thread consisted of:
Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

More usually 'calamity' or 'disaster' which makes more sense when contrasted with 'peace'.
That is all I wrote.

To which your reply was:
Yes, do what all Christians do best: twist and turn the words of their believed lord, until the word they have gradually altered becomes compatible with the particular Chrisian's weltanschauung.

You Christians are the biggest bunch of lying cheating nik-niks: you don't cheat me, you don't cheat your selves, you cheat no man, child or woman, but you cheat your God, because you say "yes, I hear you, god, I hear what you say, but I shall take it in some other way than what you say, and I shall alter the meaning of your own, very own statement, to suit my agenda among men."

This is pure audacity in the face of your god, and pure intentional ignorance of facts that are in your face.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:47 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:51 am
"It may be illogical, but they believe man and the devil created evil via their own freewill."

This is incredibly interesting.

The statement is NOT illogical, although it goes against what is said in the scriptures. It is well possible, albeit not true, since we have scriptural evidence that renders the truth of the quote invalid.

The only (that I can think of) argument that one can raise against the truth of the quote, aside from hard-statements in the bible, is that many Christians believe that everything a person does, every person, every animal, every atom, is 1. doing god's will 2. satisfying a purpose for which god has created him / her / it and 3. powered by god to perform every act they do.

So if free will is still possible under the foregoing circumstances... which it is not, then man HAS his own mind, and he can create things that hadn't existed before.

One thing that comes to mind is the artistic creative process, that may be created by man's free will, without an intervention of god's foresight, guidance, and powering.

A man who comes up with a unique idea certainly feels that it's his own creation, not a creation whispered to him. The inventor certainly likes to take sole responsibility and all the adoration and rewards for coming up with a unique idea.

Could evil be such an invention?
I don't think so. Even with freewill, our choices have always been constrained. After growing up in christianity and coming out the other side, I'm in a better position to make an objective decision, but I still cannot know what I do not know, and if I can't even tell the difference between good and evil, then how could I have created either?

Christians certainly believe in freewill since that's the justification for our damnation, but don't forget Romans 9 and predestination. When playing chess against Garry Kasparov, you're free to make any move you want, but it won't change the outcome. So you're predestined to lose and the reason for your existence is to give Garry someone to beat because: Romans 9 "some vessels are made for dishonor".

Jesus put it a little more haphazardly in analogizing to a sower spilling seeds in various locations: stony ground, sunny parching, among weeds, and finally in good ground where fruit is born, but the story is the same: you cannot control how you're made.

Election:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Predestination is a fact of the bible that most christians do not like. They call it Calvinsim.

No man can choose God:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


Even with freewill, you cannot choose God because all evil men run from the light; God must first choose you, then change you somehow, then you can choose him. It's a lot like choosing a puppy from the litter and then it will learn to love you.

The objection to predestination is often:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The question here is who are "all". If God would prefer that every human would be saved, then clearly God does not always get his way. But this question is answered by inspecting the beginning of the letter for clues of who Peter is talking to:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

So he's referring to the saved and not the entire world.

No matter how you slice it, you have precious little to say in your destiny. The Ninevites adorned themselves in sackcloth and sat in ashes until God changed his mind, but it was a function of how the king of Nineveh was put together. He could have gave God the finger instead.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:59 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:58 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:20 pm
Well there's your substantiation for Christianity.
:-), well, well. I see this instance instead as a rare but clear-sighted insight into the forces of nature and adapting it for its own use by Christian mythologists. Not QUITE a substantiation for Christianity. Or transsubstantiation thereof, hehe.

I guess I see too much in this... the exclusion of a single individual and his or her exile that meant insurmountably harsh conditions to survive in, and therefore, death for him or her was not a distant concept, but a lived reality in Biblical times.
That appears to be a good assessment. Christopher Hitchens made the observation and put forth the point that God waited, oh idk, 100,000 years before intervening to save Man and then, in his infinite wisdom, he picked the dumbest people in the middle of a desert instead of, perhaps, china where some science had gotten under way or, perhaps, waiting another 1000 or so years when humanity was better-equipped to make records. No, that was too sensible.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:16 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:04 am
Serendipper wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:18 pm

There is an answer to everything. Any position can be justified using the bible and I've been doing it for years. I can produce verses to paint God in any light you want. If one verse doesn't fit, I'll find another translation or refer to the Greek or simply say "it's not meant to be literal" or whatever I have to do to portray what I wish to showcase.
I guess every man needs a hobby. Hehe!

I fashion myself to be the Whip of God, a prenom borrowed from what Attila the Hun. The meaning is slightly altered, but still, on target.

If you want to choose a name by which people ought to remember you, Serendipper, much after your death, what would that name be? A sort of epitaph expressed in one solid singular expression.
Two things come to mind: A name doesn't make the person, but the person makes the name. You don't pick names, but names pick you.

A name depends on how a culture will interpret it and upon the person, such as Attila, who associates greatness with the name.
I fashion myself to be the Whip of God
Snappy - a quick-witted firecracker dispensing retort with report ;)

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:34 pm

Londoner wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:16 am
-1- wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:41 pm


Yes, sir. (Or madam.) I will now buy your story that "evil" means actually "good", as in God says "I create evil" means "I create good."
'Good?''

I suggested the better translation was 'disaster' or 'calamity'?

Where have I ever said it should be understood as 'good'?

You have created some fantasy of me as some sort of Christian preacher which is so powerful that you are incapable of reading what I actually write.

I haven't said I am a Christian or believe in God, or anything about God.

That is all in your head.
Good and evil must go together because one has no meaning without the other. There is no such thing as a singularity of good without a context of evil just as we cannot have the heads side of a coin without the tails. So in creating good, God created evil. Or, God created all, then drew a line differentiating good from evil.

Whether or not anyone concedes that God created evil, I think we can all agree that God could throw the devil in the bottomless pit, but doesn't, and that's my main complaint to mom: he allows his minion to run about wrecking havoc while he stands idle doing nothing to stop him. Therefore we could say that evil has a function and is necessary in God's plan, so then we can assume what is necessary for God's plan must have been created by God in order to execute his plan. Therefore God created evil or is partly evil (the left hand of God).

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:08 am

But even Satan has some limits if we are to believe the Bible. He was instructed not to kill Job and he didn't.

We need to deduce how Satan is restricted and use that to control evil at least somewhat.

Perhaps God has given us some tools and we haven't figured those out yet.

Serendipper
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Serendipper » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:12 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:08 am
But even Satan has some limits if we are to believe the Bible. He was instructed not to kill Job and he didn't.
Only because it was a bet that Job would curse God and Job couldn't curse God if he were dead.
We need to deduce how Satan is restricted and use that to control evil at least somewhat.
The problem was that Job was too righteous. If Job had been less perfect, the bet would never have taken place.
Perhaps God has given us some tools and we haven't figured those out yet.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


Good article on Satan https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/sa ... gainst-you

Belinda
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Belinda » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 pm

Dr. Abimbola, the singular of 'phenomena' is 'phenomenon'. I resent your winning a PhD and not using proper English.

There is perhaps no need to separate moral and natural evil. The naturalistic view is that morality is culturally linked with a view of how the world is and religious myths or rituals confirm the connection among the faithful. The Judeo -Christian view of reality is that God made it all and man is fallen into sin. There are other cultural explanations of evil each of which is attached to an ontology.

RickLewis
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Re: God and Evil

Post by RickLewis » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 pm
Dr. Abimbola, the singular of 'phenomena' is 'phenomenon'. I resent your winning a PhD and not using proper English.
I must leap to the defence of the excellent Dr Abimbola. That error may well have been mine. The article in question dates from 1993. Back then, very few people submitted articles to Philosophy Now electronically. Instead I used an OCR scanner to imperfectly scan the manuscripts I was sent. Sometimes I typed the text into my computer, if the original wasn't clear enough to scan. Then I edited and proof read everything - but I wasn't so good at that, 25 years ago.

Belinda
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Belinda » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 pm

RickLewis wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 pm
Dr. Abimbola, the singular of 'phenomena' is 'phenomenon'. I resent your winning a PhD and not using proper English.
I must leap to the defence of the excellent Dr Abimbola. That error may well have been mine. The article in question dates from 1993. Back then, very few people submitted articles to Philosophy Now electronically. Instead I used an OCR scanner to imperfectly scan the manuscripts I was sent. Sometimes I typed the text into my computer, if the original wasn't clear enough to scan. Then I edited and proof read everything - but I wasn't so good at that, 25 years ago.
I accept your explanation Rick although I have only a very vague notion of what an OCR scanner does however I understand that there was room for error in editing and copying.Thank you.

jayjacobus
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Re: God and Evil

Post by jayjacobus » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:44 am

RickLewis wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 pm
Dr. Abimbola, the singular of 'phenomena' is 'phenomenon'. I resent your winning a PhD and not using proper English.
I must leap to the defence of the excellent Dr Abimbola. That error may well have been mine. The article in question dates from 1993. Back then, very few people submitted articles to Philosophy Now electronically. Instead I used an OCR scanner to imperfectly scan the manuscripts I was sent. Sometimes I typed the text into my computer, if the original wasn't clear enough to scan. Then I edited and proof read everything - but I wasn't so good at that, 25 years ago.
Let me try to speak for the whole forum.

"You can't be any fairer than that."

Belinda
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Re: God and Evil

Post by Belinda » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:05 pm

The problem of evil remains a problem for the many people who don't feel truth in any religious explanation of evil.

'Evil' is a word that posters sometimes object to on grounds of its gothic or archaic connotation.I cannot think of an adequate replacement for 'evil' which includes both so-called moral and so-called natural evil.

The practical use of considering God and Evil is that modern society is fractured not only by different religious rationales but even more so by the split between conservative or reactionary religious on the one hand, and on the other hand people with no explanatory rationales at all ;a growing number as people become better educated.

Can anyone here see any reasonable faith emerging in contemporary life? Humanism perhaps. However Humanism derives from a combination of Judeo-Christian ethics with scientific enlightenment worldview. I am not sure that Humanism will suffice as it seems to lack any emotional charge.

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Re: God and Evil

Post by -1- » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:28 am

Belinda wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:05 pm
Can anyone here see any reasonable faith emerging in contemporary life? Humanism perhaps. However Humanism derives from a combination of Judeo-Christian ethics with scientific enlightenment worldview. I am not sure that Humanism will suffice as it seems to lack any emotional charge.
However, Humanism is replete with sexual discharge.

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