What Hard Problem?

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Skepdick
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Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:40 pm The Wikipedia doc. is technical jargon to anyone not in that field. If the physical is computational so be it. It does not solve the problem of what consciousness is unless it can be computed and it is hard to imagine awareness or intellect as computational. It is intangible unlike physical processes.

Hence the hard problem.
OK, so you don't know what consciousness IS. And that's a "hard problem" to you.

Do you know what a "hard problem" IS?

Seriously! In the exact same sense you mean it when it when you ask the question "What is consciousness?" could you ask (and answer) the question "What is a hard problem?"; or in general terms "What IS X?" (where X is anything).

I am super curious what your sufficency/satisfiability criteria for an acceptable answer to that sort of question might look like.
owl of Minerva
Posts: 373
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Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:12 pm
owl of Minerva wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:40 pm The Wikipedia doc. is technical jargon to anyone not in that field. If the physical is computational so be it. It does not solve the problem of what consciousness is unless it can be computed and it is hard to imagine awareness or intellect as computational. It is intangible unlike physical processes.

Hence the hard problem.
OK, so you don't know what consciousness IS. And that's a "hard problem" to you.

Do you know what a "hard problem" IS?

Seriously! In the exact same sense you mean it when it when you ask the question "What is consciousness?" could you ask (and answer) the question "What is a hard problem?"; or in general terms "What IS X?" (where X is anything).

I am super curious what your sufficency/satisfiability criteria for an acceptable answer to that sort of question might look like.
When I refer to the ‘hard problem’ in relation to consciousness I am referring to the term used by philosophers and physicists in their research and discussions. I thought that was obvious but apparently it is not. You may not be familiar with their work and discussions in relation to consciousness. You should check it out, it is interesting,
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:12 pm
owl of Minerva wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:40 pm The Wikipedia doc. is technical jargon to anyone not in that field. If the physical is computational so be it. It does not solve the problem of what consciousness is unless it can be computed and it is hard to imagine awareness or intellect as computational. It is intangible unlike physical processes.

Hence the hard problem.
OK, so you don't know what consciousness IS. And that's a "hard problem" to you.

Do you know what a "hard problem" IS?

Seriously! In the exact same sense you mean it when it when you ask the question "What is consciousness?" could you ask (and answer) the question "What is a hard problem?"; or in general terms "What IS X?" (where X is anything).

I am super curious what your sufficency/satisfiability criteria for an acceptable answer to that sort of question might look like.
When I refer to the ‘hard problem’ in relation to consciousness I am referring to the term used by philosophers and physicists in their research and discussions. I thought that was obvious but apparently it is not. You may not be familiar with their work and discussions in relation to consciousness. You should check it out, it is interesting,
You really missed the point entirely.

The point being the general form of the question: "What IS <insert target of philosophical enquiry here>?"

So when the target of philosophical enquiry is "consciousness" (in particular) then asking the question "What is consciousness?" amounts to a "hard problem" because there's no good answer.

But when the target of philosophical enquiry is "hard problems" (in particular) I ask the question "What is a hard problem?". There's no good answer to this either! So it sure seems to be as hard a problem!
owl of Minerva
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:28 pm
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:12 pm
OK, so you don't know what consciousness IS. And that's a "hard problem" to you.

Do you know what a "hard problem" IS?

Seriously! In the exact same sense you mean it when it when you ask the question "What is consciousness?" could you ask (and answer) the question "What is a hard problem?"; or in general terms "What IS X?" (where X is anything).

I am super curious what your sufficency/satisfiability criteria for an acceptable answer to that sort of question might look like.
When I refer to the ‘hard problem’ in relation to consciousness I am referring to the term used by philosophers and physicists in their research and discussions. I thought that was obvious but apparently it is not. You may not be familiar with their work and discussions in relation to consciousness. You should check it out, it is interesting,
You really missed the point entirely.

The point being the general form of the question: "What IS <insert target of philosophical enquiry here>?"

So when the target of philosophical enquiry is "consciousness" (in particular) then asking the question "What is consciousness?" amounts to a "hard problem" because there's no good answer.

But when the target of philosophical enquiry is "hard problems" (in particular) I ask the question "What is a hard problem?". There's no good answer to this either! So it sure seems to be as hard a problem!
I don’t get your point. You appear to be making a mountain out of a molehill. The simple answer to what is ‘a hard problem’ is: It is not an easy problem with an easy solution.
Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm I don’t get your point. You appear to be making a mountain out of a molehill.
Nothing like that. I am equating your mountain (or a molehill) to an equivalent mountain (or a molehill).
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm The simple answer to what is ‘a hard problem’ is: It is not an easy problem with an easy solution.
Notice how the word "problem" appears in both the question AND the answer? That's a circular answer.

Without boring you with the technical details of left recursion I'll simply ask you the question (again)...

What IS c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ a problem?
owl of Minerva
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:38 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm I don’t get your point. You appear to be making a mountain out of a molehill.
Nothing like that. I am equating your mountain (or a molehill) to an equivalent mountain (or a molehill).
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm The simple answer to what is ‘a hard problem’ is: It is not an easy problem with an easy solution.
Notice how the word "problem" appears in both the question AND the answer? That's a circular answer.

Without boring you with the technical details of left recursion I'll simply ask you the question (again)...

What IS c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ a problem?
In simple terms what is consciousness is a problem because science and philosophy are not far enough advanced yet to understand the electromagnetic field. Is it a vacuum with one electricity or five, being as there are five elements and five senses? Is the gross electricity of nature the only electricity?

If the electrified magnetic field is responsible for the three forces: strong, neutral and weak do they each have five attributes from the five electricities of the electromagnetic field? Hence five elements and five senses in the material world where only the weak force is manifested and visible, although impacted on by all three forces and their attributes?

We may be at the end of this particular age before some of these questions are answered, likely no more will be known than an understanding of the attributes of the three forces and the role they play in nature including mankind, an understanding of human consciousness. In a further age on that knowledge being accessed humanity will likely be ready to consider magnetism and its origin. If the electromagnetic field is polarized, as it must be to be a field, what polarizes it? What is magnetism itself and what is its origin?

It likely could take another age further to answer what is Consciousness Itself, the foregoing questions have to be answered first. And answering them is the so-called ‘hard problem.’ We are not concerned here with the literalism of ‘left recursion’. Reality does not lend itself to literalism but does lend itself to investigation and insight.

Thinking it all happens in the brain, the processing center, with neurons firing and certain areas causing certain outcomes is not going to answer what is human consciousness much less what is Cosmic Consciousness.
Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:38 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm I don’t get your point. You appear to be making a mountain out of a molehill.
Nothing like that. I am equating your mountain (or a molehill) to an equivalent mountain (or a molehill).
owl of Minerva wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:08 pm The simple answer to what is ‘a hard problem’ is: It is not an easy problem with an easy solution.
Notice how the word "problem" appears in both the question AND the answer? That's a circular answer.

Without boring you with the technical details of left recursion I'll simply ask you the question (again)...

What IS c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ a problem?
In simple terms what is consciousness is a problem because science and philosophy are not far enough advanced yet to understand the electromagnetic field. Is it a vacuum with one electricity or five, being as there are five elements and five senses? Is the gross electricity of nature the only electricity?

If the electrified magnetic field is responsible for the three forces: strong, neutral and weak do they each have five attributes from the five electricities of the electromagnetic field? Hence five elements and five senses in the material world where only the weak force is manifested and visible, although impacted on by all three forces and their attributes?

We may be at the end of this particular age before some of these questions are answered, likely no more will be known than an understanding of the attributes of the three forces and the role they play in nature including mankind, an understanding of human consciousness. In a further age on that knowledge being accessed humanity will likely be ready to consider magnetism and its origin. If the electromagnetic field is polarized, as it must be to be a field, what polarizes it? What is magnetism itself and what is its origin?

It likely could take another age further to answer what is Consciousness Itself, the foregoing questions have to be answered first. And answering them is the so-called ‘hard problem.’ We are not concerned here with the literalism of ‘left recursion’. Reality does not lend itself to literalism but does lend itself to investigation and insight.

Thinking it all happens in the brain, the processing center, with neurons firing and certain areas causing certain outcomes is not going to answer what is human consciousness much less what is Cosmic Consciousness.
Yep... you really suck at basic English comprehension.

Before you learn to run you should learn how to walk.

Before you answer "What is consciousness?", try answering "What is a problem?"

You don't understand what the question means.
owl of Minerva
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:59 pm
owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:38 am
Nothing like that. I am equating your mountain (or a molehill) to an equivalent mountain (or a molehill).


Notice how the word "problem" appears in both the question AND the answer? That's a circular answer.

Without boring you with the technical details of left recursion I'll simply ask you the question (again)...

What IS c̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ a problem?
In simple terms what is consciousness is a problem because science and philosophy are not far enough advanced yet to understand the electromagnetic field. Is it a vacuum with one electricity or five, being as there are five elements and five senses? Is the gross electricity of nature the only electricity?

If the electrified magnetic field is responsible for the three forces: strong, neutral and weak do they each have five attributes from the five electricities of the electromagnetic field? Hence five elements and five senses in the material world where only the weak force is manifested and visible, although impacted on by all three forces and their attributes?

We may be at the end of this particular age before some of these questions are answered, likely no more will be known than an understanding of the attributes of the three forces and the role they play in nature including mankind, an understanding of human consciousness. In a further age on that knowledge being accessed humanity will likely be ready to consider magnetism and its origin. If the electromagnetic field is polarized, as it must be to be a field, what polarizes it? What is magnetism itself and what is its origin?

It likely could take another age further to answer what is Consciousness Itself, the foregoing questions have to be answered first. And answering them is the so-called ‘hard problem.’ We are not concerned here with the literalism of ‘left recursion’. Reality does not lend itself to literalism but does lend itself to investigation and insight.

Thinking it all happens in the brain, the processing center, with neurons firing and certain areas causing certain outcomes is not going to answer what is human consciousness much less what is Cosmic Consciousness.
Yep... you really suck at basic English comprehension.

Before you learn to run you should learn how to walk.

Before you answer "What is consciousness?", try answering "What is a problem?"

You don't understand what the question means.
From your first post I pegged you as a troll but played along as if I was having a philosophical discussion with someone who was really interested in having a philosophical discussion, not in trolling. I am not interested in defining ‘what is a problem’ for you. Go Google it.

I defined the problem under discussion. Have you read it, are you capable of understanding it, or you just interested in trolling? As it appears you are, go troll somewhere else.

ARRIVEDERCI.
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by popeye1945 »

Philosophy Now wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:19 pm Our philosophical science correspondent Massimo Pigliucci asks.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/99/What_Hard_Problem
Consciousness is the relation between subject and object, a reciprocal casual- reaction basis, where object/the world, is cause and the conscious subject is response, is the reaction, and reaction is cause to the physical world as the object.
owl of Minerva
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Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:24 am
Philosophy Now wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:19 pm Our philosophical science correspondent Massimo Pigliucci asks.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/99/What_Hard_Problem
Consciousness is the relation between subject and object, a reciprocal casual- reaction basis, where object/the world, is cause and the conscious subject is response, is the reaction, and reaction is cause to the physical world as the object.
Hume’s view was that knowledge was derived from sense perception. Kant refuted that in his theory of the difference between noumena and phenomena. Things as they are in themselves, noumena, always beyond the limits of human perception and knowing and things as they appear to us under the categories of perception, phenomena. Consciousness would come under the definition of things as they are in themselves,
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by popeye1945 »

owl of Minerva wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:05 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:24 am
Philosophy Now wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:19 pm Our philosophical science correspondent Massimo Pigliucci asks.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/99/What_Hard_Problem
Consciousness is the relation between subject and object, a reciprocal casual- reaction basis, where object/the world, is cause and the conscious subject is response, is the reaction, and reaction is cause to the physical world as the object.
Hume’s view was that knowledge was derived from sense perception. Kant refuted that in his theory of the difference between noumena and phenomena. Things as they are in themselves, noumena, always beyond the limits of human perception and knowing and things as they appear to us under the categories of perception, phenomena. Consciousness would come under the definition of things as they are in themselves,
Well, I agree with Hume. Kant inferred that the thing in itself was not available to us, it was unknowable. I think today we can safely say that the noumena is energy, for as modern physicists proclaim there is nothing but energy. We experience energy as sound, energy as color and energy as object and out of all this biological readout, we acquire our apparent reality.
owl of Minerva
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:39 am
owl of Minerva wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:05 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:24 am

Consciousness is the relation between subject and object, a reciprocal casual- reaction basis, where object/the world, is cause and the conscious subject is response, is the reaction, and reaction is cause to the physical world as the object.
Hume’s view was that knowledge was derived from sense perception. Kant refuted that in his theory of the difference between noumena and phenomena. Things as they are in themselves, noumena, always beyond the limits of human perception and knowing and things as they appear to us under the categories of perception, phenomena. Consciousness would come under the definition of things as they are in themselves,
Well, I agree with Hume. Kant inferred that the thing in itself was not available to us, it was unknowable. I think today we can safely say that the noumena is energy, for as modern physicists proclaim there is nothing but energy. We experience energy as sound, energy as color and energy as object and out of all this biological readout, we acquire our apparent reality.
There are perspectives other than Hume’s radical empiricism. Consciousness ranging from waking and sleeping; subconsciousness, deep sleep or dreaming and altered states, and trance, conscious or unconscious. Sleep comes unaided except to insomniacs. Other states require aids, drumming, psychedelics, or yoga practices such as meditation, getting past sensory consciousness and thought through sound, hearing the primal sound OM which appears to be a conduit to superconscious states.

All sensory deprived states with the exception of, maybe, coma or unconscious trance provide extra-sensory information. The senses are limited to the immediate environment which intelligence is not so the intellect and abstract thought can also have a wider range. Physicists no longer define a “body” as matter but as an electro-magnetic wave. Which inspires a humorous thought of a physicist giving an eulogy.

There is likely a spectrum of energy, as all is energy, with matter and what is visible at the lower end with slow rates of vibration to the higher end and subtle non perceptible vibrations, such as sound of which we have access to in a limited range. Consciousness is likely at the higher end of the spectrum.
owl of Minerva
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Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by owl of Minerva »

A further thought there is also light, it may have a connection to conscious perception, if not to consciousness itself. Some physicists posit that it is a carrier of information but as that is not verified it exists as a theory until further research either verifies or refutes it. Some religions belief in an inner light. Maybe If perception is reduced to a singularity the electromagnetic wave may be perceived as an expression of light. But there is currently no evidence of that being the case.
Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:03 pm From your first post I pegged you as a troll but played along as if I was having a philosophical discussion with someone who was really interested in having a philosophical discussion, not in trolling. I am not interested in defining ‘what is a problem’ for you. Go Google it.

I defined the problem under discussion. Have you read it, are you capable of understanding it, or you just interested in trolling? As it appears you are, go troll somewhere else.

ARRIVEDERCI.
What a confused person you are.

There is no difference between Philosophy and trolling.
There is a difference between Philosophy (a.k.a trolling) and science.

Only trolls/Philosopher give a shit about the question "What is consciousness?"

Scientist simply want to synthesize/engineer/replicate it.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What Hard Problem?

Post by Skepdick »

owl of Minerva wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:19 pm There is likely a spectrum of energy, as all is energy, with matter and what is visible at the lower end with slow rates of vibration to the higher end and subtle non perceptible vibrations, such as sound of which we have access to in a limited range. Consciousness is likely at the higher end of the spectrum.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Energy!

You want to explain "consciousness" in terms of other abstractions :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

**WOO WOO MAGIC**
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