Atheist In A Foxhole

[marjoram_blues]

Previously:

M: see full response to IC Fri Jun 12th
...The fact that he would inflict himself and his unwanted beliefs on a dying non-believer and call it 'caring' - well, it sickens me beyond belief.
This is nothing more that mental and psychological abuse.

Wyman to IC - I told you they don't like soul-savers.

M to Wyman - keep on with the generalisations, why don't you?

W: Nobody likes them that I know of, excepting themselves. People who want to be saved are rare, unless you count children who are raised that way.
I was just suggesting to IC that a different approach may be warranted.

M: You turned a specific objection against IC into a generalisation; characterising me as 'they' ( presumably 'atheists') and IC as someone I don't like because he is a 'soul-saver'.
IC is more than just a 'soul-saver', even if that were possible. I've already given a very brief description of my own thoughts re his posts and manipulations on the PN forum.
I am not concerned with his likeability. This thread is about so much more.
Wyman, you are intelligent and use words carefully. If you want to suggest something to IC about his approach, in general or particular, then there is a clearer, less ambiguous way to proceed.

I think we have travelled too far from discussing the article and its contents. I'm not even sure that the title/phrase 'Atheist in a Foxhole' has been understood...

[thedoc]

I think we have travelled too far from discussing the article and its contents. I'm not even sure that the title/phrase 'Atheist in a Foxhole' has been understood...

I took it to refer to the old saying "There are no atheists in a fox hole." meaning that in times of great stress and danger everyone turns to God. Like many other sayings that are accepted as common knowledge, I don't think this is altogether true, if it's true at all. It might be true that some who assert that they are atheists will cry out to God, when they really didn't mean it sincerely when they said they were Atheists. A case in point, my daughter left the church saying she didn't believe in God, but later said she really did believe, she just didn't want to go to church, and that clarified things for me because I had suspected the real reason why she didn't want to go.

[Immanuel Can]

Allow me to expand with a true story...

Sometimes it's just disrespectful to respond to a story with intellectual arguments. The story you mention seems to me like one of those.

At the grave of Lazarus, writes John, "Jesus wept." It's the shortest, most concise verse in the entire Bible. If standing by the grave of a man he knew full well he was about to raise was enough to make the Son of God weep with sympathy for the sorrows of this world, who am I to offer intellectual arguments instead?

But if you have a question you'd like to ask me to answer (if I can) based on that, of course I won't hesitate to do my best. Otherwise, let me just say it's a very sad story indeed.

[marjoram_blues]

M: I think we have travelled too far from discussing the article and its contents. I'm not even sure that the title/phrase 'Atheist in a Foxhole' has been understood...

thedoc: I took it to refer to the old saying "There are no atheists in a fox hole." meaning that in times of great stress and danger everyone turns to God. Like many other sayings that are accepted as common knowledge, I don't think this is altogether true, if it's true at all. It might be true that some who assert that they are atheists will cry out to God, when they really didn't mean it sincerely when they said they were Atheists. A case in point, my daughter left the church saying she didn't believe in God, but later said she really did believe, she just didn't want to go to church, and that clarified things for me because I had suspected the real reason why she didn't want to go.

Yes, it seems to be a myth.

From: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyth ... oxhole.htm

The claim that there are no atheists in foxholes has been around for a long time, but it became especially popular after the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11, 2001. This myth tries to claim that during times of great crisis, in particular those which threaten a person's life, it is no longer possible to "hold out" and maintain disbelief in a higher, saving power...
Clearly it's false that every and any atheist will cry out to God or starting believing in God during times of crisis.
[Consider]: 'There Are No Theists in Foxholes': ... Extreme battlefield experiences and the dangers of foxholes can undermine a person's faith in a good, loving God. Quite a few soldiers have entered battle devout believers but ended up coming away without any faith at all...

Is the claim that there are no atheists in foxholes meant to imply that atheists aren't "really" nonbelievers and actually harbor a secret belief in God? Perhaps, but it is a false implication and can't be taken seriously. Is it meant to imply that atheism is inherently "weak" while theism represents "strength?" Once again, that may be the case — but it would also be a false implication.

From: http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/I_ ... _a_Foxhole
When I had first arrived in South Vietnam and reported to my assigned military unit, I told my platoon sergeant that I could not kill anyone. He told me that there are no pacifists or atheists in foxholes. He was wrong...

I don't know whether the title was the author's or the PN team's choice. However, it seems to me that it doesn't concern the possibility of the author turning to God/accepting the idea of Heaven as he suffers this terminal illness. [Although, that may in fact be on his mind...an unbidden thought...who knows]

He says:

Having never had an inclination towards the supernatural, religion has never appeared to me as either credible or a source of comfort. News of looming death has not encouraged me to grasp for false consolation, though consolation is sorely needed. Rather, my obsession with death has hitherto been soothed by Socrates’ description of philosophy as the process by which one comes to accept one’s own death. Now, confronted with the terminal nature of life at a young age, I wonder if I have sufficiently moved along this process of acceptance, which is invariably a very personal one.
...
However, the comforting notion of an afterlife is astonishingly unlikely to be true, and it is not needed. I don’t think that death should be feared, because looked squarely in the eye it can be seen to be the same as the silence from which we came. Moreover, with no afterlife, we should make more of the period we now have – a length of time that is largely unknown to most of us. Therefore our fears should be either to waste that time or to not be given enough of it.
...
Religious people sometimes say that no-one is an atheist in a foxhole (presumably that applies to cancerburrows too) – the presumption being that “ye of little faith” will grasp for solace through a supernatural belief system hitherto rejected because ye have now had a change of fortune. But if wishful thinking were so easy, and effective, I would simply wish the cancer to be gone – that would seem to be the straightforward wishful approach.
...
For most people life appears as a forward projection rather than a countdown. But both perspectives are needed. At some point in our lives the horizon will appear and we must ask ourselves the following question: looking in the rear-view mirror, how do I feel about what I leave behind.

Seems to me that David has indeed left his mark,together with his follow-up article: 'The Party Without Me': https://philosophynow.org/issues/108/Th ... Without_Me

The world without us is only made different by what we leave behind. We are only guests at this party, but should aim to leave it better for us having been there.
© Dr David Rönnegard 2015
David Rönnegard has a PhD in philosophy from LSE, and is a researcher and teacher in corporate social responsibility in Stockholm

I can only salute David and hope that he knows that he is well-hugged. All respect and thanks for sharing this particular page of life; provoking continual thought. What more can a philosopher ask for?

[Dalek Prime]

Allow me to expand with a true story...

Sometimes it's just disrespectful to respond to a story with intellectual arguments. The story you mention seems to me like one of those.

At the grave of Lazarus, writes John, "Jesus wept." It's the shortest, most concise verse in the entire Bible. If standing by the grave of a man he knew full well he was about to raise was enough to make the Son of God weep with sympathy for the sorrows of this world, who am I to offer intellectual arguments instead?

But if you have a question you'd like to ask me to answer (if I can) based on that, of course I won't hesitate to do my best. Otherwise, let me just say it's a very sad story indeed.

It was sad indeed. I liked him very much, and seeing that in the paper was quite a shock. But I didn't mean to shut down the conversation in the telling. It just came to mind, and I wrote it. Very decent of you to reply the way you did, though, IC.

The story of Lazarus. Why did Jesus cry? For Lararus' passing, or his raising back into a world of sorrow?

[Immanuel Can]

The story of Lazarus. Why did Jesus cry? For Lararus' passing, or his raising back into a world of sorrow?

It's a bit of a mystery, that.

But I think it was this: death, and all the side effects of living in a death-bound world (a.k.a. a foxhole), are very serious things. It is very sad that mankind, who was made for life, joy and friendship with God, should have fallen so far that he suffers, sickens, experiences violence, is lonely, and dies. And it's sad that he lives in a world so marred by the effects of that situation.

And I think we can all get behind that sentiment, can't we?

[Dalek Prime]

I certainly can. Thanks for the honest response, IC.

[marjoram_blues]

IC: ...death, and all the side effects of living in a death-bound world (a.k.a. a foxhole) are very serious things. It is very sad that mankind, who was made for life, joy and friendship with God, should have fallen so far that he suffers, sickens, experiences violence, is lonely, and dies. And it's sad that he lives in a world so marred by the effects of that situation.

And I think we can all get behind that sentiment, can't we?

DP: I certainly can. Thanks for the honest response, IC.

Sounds like the seeds of a destructive religious cult. Not exactly uplifting; a certain degree of manipulation and danger here. Life negation.

A foxhole, aka fighting hole, is a narrow, confined space of shelter usually for fighting men. It can be a life-saver. Or a place from which to kill others. Or a place to die; you dig your own grave.
This is not the same as living in the world ( death-bound or otherwise) as suggested above.
To live in the world means experiencing both joy and despair, and all things in between. It is challenging and might mean a fight - or two.
We can use 'foxholes' in life when things get bad. To breathe and take account of next move forward...wherever that might lead. A reprieve.

The author of this article views life as a positive. He would like more time to experience all its woes and wonders.
Life can be seen as sad or sick - but also as a party. It is a mix of all kinds of everything. Dancing and dying.

So, no. We can't all get behind IC's 'sentiment'. Far from it.
Again, he shows himself for what he is. Controlling, obsessive looking for recruits. Onward Christian soldiers? Heaven awaits. I think not.
Always, turning the spotlight on him and his cause. Over and over again.
Enough already.

[Immanuel Can]

richard dawkins' logic.png (45.25 KiB) Viewed 3911 times

[Dalek Prime]

IC: ...death, and all the side effects of living in a death-bound world (a.k.a. a foxhole) are very serious things. It is very sad that mankind, who was made for life, joy and friendship with God, should have fallen so far that he suffers, sickens, experiences violence, is lonely, and dies. And it's sad that he lives in a world so marred by the effects of that situation.

And I think we can all get behind that sentiment, can't we?

DP: I certainly can. Thanks for the honest response, IC.

Sounds like the seeds of a destructive religious cult. Not exactly uplifting; a certain degree of manipulation and danger here. Life negation.

A foxhole, aka fighting hole, is a narrow, confined space of shelter usually for fighting men. It can be a life-saver. Or a place from which to kill others. Or a place to die; you dig your own grave.
This is not the same as living in the world ( death-bound or otherwise) as suggested above.
To live in the world means experiencing both joy and despair, and all things in between. It is challenging and might mean a fight - or two.
We can use 'foxholes' in life when things get bad. To breathe and take account of next move forward...wherever that might lead. A reprieve.

The author of this article views life as a positive. He would like more time to experience all its woes and wonders.
Life can be seen as sad or sick - but also as a party. It is a mix of all kinds of everything. Dancing and dying.

So, no. We can't all get behind IC's 'sentiment'. Far from it.
Again, he shows himself for what he is. Controlling, obsessive looking for recruits. Onward Christian soldiers? Heaven awaits. I think not.
Always, turning the spotlight on him and his cause. Over and over again.
Enough already.

Just because you want to see life in a positive light, doesn't mean it truly is that way. You just delude yourself to get through it. Anyone can be happy, in hell or on earth (same thing, IMO) if you tell yourself it's great, over and over again.

Life is but a random warm and humid fart, fouling the cool breeze that is the universe. The universe has no need or desire to be observed. It's the observer who puts themself first and foremost, wanting to believe the universe couldn't do without them. Such unfathomable hubris.

[marjoram_blues]

DP: Just because you want to see life in a positive light, doesn't mean it truly is that way. You just delude yourself to get through it. Anyone can be happy, in hell or on earth (same thing, IMO) if you tell yourself it's great, over and over again.

Life is but a random warm and humid fart, fouling the cool breeze that is the universe. The universe has no need or desire to be observed. It's the observer who puts themself first and foremost, wanting to believe the universe couldn't do without them. Such unfathomable hubris.

There is no hubris here, nor any illusions about life.
I would discuss the further points you raise about happiness and any observers of the universe but not here.
I have said all I want to say about this article.
Many thanks and best wishes...again...to the author.

[Dalek Prime]

I'm still surprised to encounter an atheist who is in quest of immortality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality

Why are you surprised? Aren't you curious to know what the future might hold?

Points in time in the future, where humankind is still around you mean? That's only a bit of the nearer future.

[Dalek Prime]

There is no hubris here, nor any illusions about life.
I would discuss the further points you raise about happiness and any observers of the universe but not here.
I have said all I want to say about this article.
Many thanks and best wishes...again...to the author.

Any time you wish, let me know, marjoram.

[marjoram_blues]

Off-topic note to DP

There is no hubris here, nor any illusions about life.
I would discuss the further points you raise about happiness and any observers of the universe but not here.
I have said all I want to say about this article.
Many thanks and best wishes...again...to the author.

Any time you wish, let me know, marjoram.

On second thoughts, is there any point ?
I see my life as valuable; you don't appear to value yours. Why make any more effort...to talk together at all...

[Dalek Prime]

Off-topic note to DP

There is no hubris here, nor any illusions about life.
I would discuss the further points you raise about happiness and any observers of the universe but not here.
I have said all I want to say about this article.
Many thanks and best wishes...again...to the author.

Any time you wish, let me know, marjoram.

On second thoughts, is there any point ?
I see my life as valuable; you don't appear to value yours. Why make any more effort...to talk together at all...

Actually, you're mistaken. I value existence. What I don't value is humanities compulsive desire to create more of it, where it need not be. But okay, you don't want to talk to me at all. I'll leave you to your preference. Enjoy your life.