How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 15238
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm


IC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

RC: "Because it's the nature of rocks to fall off cliffs, of course."

IC: ??????
RC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

IC: "Because the rock-falling demon made it fall."

RC: ??????
Except IC says, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc. made it fall."

Rock demons are another invention of RC's fevered imagination.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4724
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:46 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm


IC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

RC: "Because it's the nature of rocks to fall off cliffs, of course."

IC: ??????
RC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

IC: "Because the rock-falling demon made it fall."

RC: ??????
Except IC says, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc. made it fall."

Rock demons are another invention of RC's fevered imagination.
Look, you make stuff up which I never said. Turn about is fair play.

RC said the rocks own nature, it's mass and weight, is why it fell. It's nature didn't, "make," it fall, as if it were some agent, it is the reason it fell, because if it had any other nature, was not heavey, it's reaction to changing conditions (which you are calling "causes,") would have been different. The same so-called causes you cite have no ability to cause anything to happen, they only change the context of the existents relative to them, and it is the nature of those existents that determines how they will react to those changes in context. " The very same, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc." will not result in any feathers or light wood falling, and rocks can certainly fall without any of those supposed, "causes."
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 15238
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:18 pm RC said the rocks own nature, it's mass and weight, is why it fell.
So tectonics, gravity, erosion, frost, the guy with the lever, dynamite, etc. had nothing to do with it?

The rock was heavy, and heavy things fall....and you think that's a causal explanation?

Nope.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by henry quirk »

All I know is...

...if I throw a rock at RC's noggin, and my aim is true, he's gonna bleed, be pissed, and mebbe have a headache.

That is: if I impart motion and direction (give a target) to a rock, I can cause an event. Cause & effect.

...and...

...if I throw an egg at Mannie's noggin, and my aim is true, he's gonna -- literally -- have egg on his face, and mebbe be pissed.

That is: if I impart motion and direction (give a target) to an egg, I can cause an event. Cause & effect.

Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.
seeds
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by seeds »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am You just keep throwing images at me.
And you just keep throwing words at me.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am I am aware via extensive literatures, certain people with mental illness, taken drugs, etc. are also drawing such pictures like yours.
It is likely you could be in the same set as theirs.

Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?

The truth of the matter is that I have admitted several times on this forum that when I was younger, I had a great deal of experience with a powerful entheogen that, in the words of Aldous Huxley, helped to open the "Doors of Perception" for me.

Furthermore, according to a certain hypothesis attributed to Terrence McKenna, it could quite possibly have been the random ingestion of certain psychoactive plants that helped to transform (awaken) the early hominids from their ape (animal) level of consciousness into the higher (and self-reflective) human level of consciousness.

Indeed, that could even be what is implied in the Eden myth, wherein the eating of a certain something bestowed mind-elevating knowledge to the eater.

It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...

Image

And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

Image

And the point is that anything or any circumstance that can "jar us out" of our fixed level of consciousness...

(such as entheogenic substances, or a near-death experience, or even a stroke as was experienced by Jill Bolte Taylor, etc.)

...which then gives us a completely different perspective on what we call "reality",...

(or, at the very least, helps some of us to see past the "shadows" in Plato's cave)

...may very well be vital to the ever-ascending evolution of human consciousness itself.

In which case, your obvious attempt to shine a negative light on "altered states of consciousness" is simply another example of your narrow-minded thinking, and is testament to the fact that you are still trapped in the aforementioned "fixed" level of consciousness.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am E.g. St. Paul suffered a one-off trigger of epiphany due to Temporal Epilepsy [likely] that changed him into a serious religious person.
So then, as a cautionary example of the "negative effects" of altered states of consciousness, you are going to use a person who helped usher-in the largest and most popular religion the world has ever known?

Interesting.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am If you do extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned you will note whatever "epiphanic experiences" you have had experienced are merely psychological and they happened in your brain.
Although I would substitute the word "brain" with the word "mind," the question is, where else would they happen? In my foot?

You've just reminded me that it's time to update your list of self-aggrandizing statements about your alleged abilities and achievements:
  • 1. Note I have martial arts background.

    2. Note I have done extensive research into the spirituality of human nature.

    3. I am inclined with one-upping knowledge.

    4. My struggle to be understood is on a par with the likes of Copernicus, Galileo, Socrates, Einstein, and Kant.

    5. I am an expert on Islam.

    6. I am an expert on Buddhism.

    7. I am an expert on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.

    8. I am an expert on "What is Philosophy."

    10. I've done extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned.

    11. Soon to be announced...
_______
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4724
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:39 pm Neither rock or egg will do diddly ... till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to ...
Guess there will be no more baby chicks 'til henry makes them happen, and I doubt you'll be doing much of anything with a rock that weighs 900 pounds.

Of course in your magic world where, "causes," determine how things behave, no matter what their nature is, like miracles and supernatural revelation, anything is possible.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by henry quirk »

RC,

Guess there will be no more baby chicks 'til henry makes them happen, and I doubt you'll be doing much of anything with a rock that weighs 900 pounds.

Bitchiness is unbecomin', guy.

I wrote: Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.

And: I won't throw a 900 pounder (though, with the right machine, I could drop one on you).

Of course in your magic world where, "causes," determine how things behave, no matter what their nature is, like miracles and supernatural revelation, anything is possible.

Nice try, guy, but I don't believe in miracles or revelation.

Again: Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.

I don't determine how rock or egg behave: I act upon them, each reacts accordin' to what it is.

It's cause & effect.

The rock does its thing (smashin' your sour face) becuz I act on it; the egg does its thing (crackin' open and engoopifyin' Mannie) becuz I act on it.

It's cause & effect.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am You just keep throwing images at me.
And you just keep throwing words at me.
Nope! it is rather arguments and 'seeking justification for what you are claiming' that I am throwing at you.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am I am aware via extensive literatures, certain people with mental illness, taken drugs, etc. are also drawing such pictures like yours.
It is likely you could be in the same set as theirs.

Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.

I had also posted extensively re Morality & Ethics.

Whatever I had posted is open to be countered by anyone.

Btw, I did not insist you have an obsession with yours but rather you are not providing sufficient justifications for your claims in this case. You may be focusing on other issues not related to this topic elsewhere which is none of my concern.
The truth of the matter is that I have admitted several times on this forum that when I was younger, I had a great deal of experience with a powerful entheogen that, in the words of Aldous Huxley, helped to open the "Doors of Perception" for me.

Furthermore, according to a certain hypothesis attributed to Terrence McKenna, it could quite possibly have been the random ingestion of certain psychoactive plants that helped to transform (awaken) the early hominids from their ape (animal) level of consciousness into the higher (and self-reflective) human level of consciousness.

Indeed, that could even be what is implied in the Eden myth, wherein the eating of a certain something bestowed mind-elevating knowledge to the eater.

It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...
"a powerful entheogen"
That is the reason why you have had those "epiphany experiences" as with all others who took various hallucinogens.
As I had suggested you need to exhaust whatever one need to know about 'altered states of consciousness'.

Point is whatever is experienced in altered states of consciousness cannot be confirmed with a conclusion God Exists.
Million of people have had such altered states of consciousness via hallucinogens, drugs, etc. but most do not translate to a claim God exists. Note Jill Bolte for example. Aldous Huxley was agnostic with a more heavier atheistic inclination.
You have to prove god exists as real.


And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

And the point is that anything or any circumstance that can "jar us out" of our fixed level of consciousness...

(such as entheogenic substances, or a near-death experience, or even a stroke as was experienced by Jill Bolte Taylor, etc.)

...which then gives us a completely different perspective on what we call "reality",...

(or, at the very least, helps some of us to see past the "shadows" in Plato's cave)

...may very well be vital to the ever-ascending evolution of human consciousness itself.

In which case, your obvious attempt to shine a negative light on "altered states of consciousness" is simply another example of your narrow-minded thinking, and is testament to the fact that you are still trapped in the aforementioned "fixed" level of consciousness.
I did not insist "altered states of consciousness" [ASC] is negative.
It is just that one cannot hinge on ASC to insist God exists as real.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am E.g. St. Paul suffered a one-off trigger of epiphany due to Temporal Epilepsy [likely] that changed him into a serious religious person.
So then, as a cautionary example of the "negative effects" of altered states of consciousness, you are going to use a person who helped usher-in the largest and most popular religion the world has ever known?
Interesting.
There are links between Temporal Lobe Epilepsy [TLE] and altered states of consciousness.
There are many famous spiritual personalities who seemingly had suffered from TLE as evident from the experiences they had reported.

Since you mentioned "powerful entheogen" your case may not related to TLE but you cannot be sure unless you get it checked.
Note:
Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 1
youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg&t=1s

In extreme cases, even a brain tumor [in addition to other brain damage] can triggered altered states of consciousness.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am If you do extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned you will note whatever "epiphanic experiences" you have had experienced are merely psychological and they happened in your brain.
Although I would substitute the word "brain" with the word "mind," the question is, where else would they happen? In my foot?
This is not an issue.
If you prefer it is brain/mind which I often referred to.
You've just reminded me that it's time to update your list of self-aggrandizing statements about your alleged abilities and achievements:
  • 1. Note I have martial arts background.

    2. Note I have done extensive research into the spirituality of human nature.

    3. I am inclined with one-upping knowledge.

    4. My struggle to be understood is on a par with the likes of Copernicus, Galileo, Socrates, Einstein, and Kant.

    5. I am an expert on Islam.

    6. I am an expert on Buddhism.

    7. I am an expert on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.

    8. I am an expert on "What is Philosophy."

    10. I've done extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned.

    11. Soon to be announced...

I am not claiming my expertise is 99/100 but ranges from 60/100 to 80/100 depending on the subject.

Here is one more, "I have >12,000 files [books, articles, notes, etc.] in 739 sub-Folders in my "Philosophy" Folder [given some duplications].

I had deliberately put in the necessary efforts to achieve them, so there is no shame to claim them which is relevant in any intellectual discussion on where I stand.

Meanwhile you are merely relying on some hallucinogens, i.e. the lazy man's way to get high.
seeds
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by seeds »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 am Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.
The fact that Kant might hold some sway in the world of philosophy has nothing to do with you "proving" that your fanboy obsession with him isn't based on...

(to use the same words that you use on me)

...your own personal "existential crisis" in the form of a "subliminal inferiority complex" that causes you to seek-out a hero figure (Kant) to help soothe your "inherent cognitive dissonance."

So go ahead, Veritas, give me some empirically verifiable "PROOF" that what I just suggested about your personal psychological status isn't true.

Veritas, you are the quintessential "naysayer."

You are the type of person that history looks back on as being a member of the general group of non-productive, unimaginative humans who, having no true understanding of what was being offered, nevertheless, made it their life's mission to denigrate the works and efforts of the world's innovators.

I mean, aside from your idolizing and parroting the words of a smelly old man from the past, and aside from your nihilistic vision of reality that implies that there is no ultimate and eternal purpose for humans as individuals,...

...what exactly are you offering to humans that might give them a glimmer of "hope" that there might be more to life than what meets the eye?

For example, what words of comfort and solace do you have to offer to grieving parents who just lost their young child to a disease?

Image

Or what specific words or vital aspect of your philosophy would be useful for this little girl to recall...

Image

...in the few remaining moments before the vulture comes in to devour her flesh?

Come on now, Veritas, give me the best and most memorable lines from your materialistic philosophy that will help these humans endure their darkest hours on earth.
_______
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:32 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 am Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.
The fact that Kant might hold some sway in the world of philosophy has nothing to do with you "proving" that your fanboy obsession with him isn't based on...

(to use the same words that you use on me)

...your own personal "existential crisis" in the form of a "subliminal inferiority complex" that causes you to seek-out a hero figure (Kant) to help soothe your "inherent cognitive dissonance."

So go ahead, Veritas, give me some empirically verifiable "PROOF" that what I just suggested about your personal psychological status isn't true.

Veritas, you are the quintessential "naysayer."

You are the type of person that history looks back on as being a member of the general group of non-productive, unimaginative humans who, having no true understanding of what was being offered, nevertheless, made it their life's mission to denigrate the works and efforts of the world's innovators.

I mean, aside from your idolizing and parroting the words of a smelly old man from the past, and aside from your nihilistic vision of reality that implies that there is no ultimate and eternal purpose for humans as individuals,...

...what exactly are you offering to humans that might give them a glimmer of "hope" that there might be more to life than what meets the eye?

For example, what words of comfort and solace do you have to offer to grieving parents who just lost their young child to a disease?

Image

Or what specific words or vital aspect of your philosophy would be useful for this little girl to recall...

Image

...in the few remaining moments before the vulture comes in to devour her flesh?

Come on now, Veritas, give me the best and most memorable lines from your materialistic philosophy that will help these humans endure their darkest hours on earth.
_______
Come on man! You are making too much noise based on ignorance and with no sound justifications [smelly old man?? :roll: :mrgreen: ]
Btw, I am not into materialism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

I have presented this non-theistic solution [in iterative continuous improvement mode] for mankind which is in line with principles from Kant.

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

For those who are able to align with it and execute the practices, it will resolve the cognitive dissonances of their inherent existence crisis as it has been doing since 2500 years ago. The long terms goals for humanity are in its justified potentials.

What is most critical is, the above is on a progressive positive trend towards the future in promoting perpetual peace for mankind.

OTOH, theism [and its varying kinds] had contributed terrible evils to mankind and will continue to do so eternally [note especially Islam which is inherently evil].
Even where the theism [pantheism, deism, panentheism] is benign, they still actively stall progress for humanity where the focus is merely to soothe the terrible pains arising from the inherent existential crisis.

How can your belief in God help to alleviate hunger [re the image you linked] and other terrible evils & sufferings in the world?
Note China recently declared its have alleviated poverty.
How China has lifted nearly 800 million people out of poverty
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-0 ... 862741.htm
and that was done without any belief in a God!

With a belief in a God, some will even kill their parents, siblings, kins and non-believers when their consonance from a belief in a God is threatened with the slightest threats, e.g. drawing of cartoons, even disbelieving is a threat, etc.

Btw seriously, to do rational justice to yourself, I strongly suggest you exhaust everything that is to know about 'altered states of consciousness' to get the realization where you fit therein. This is all about self-knowledge [know thyself] rather than propaganda from outside. It will definitely relieve you of a great burden.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 am Even where the theism [pantheism, deism, panentheism] is benign, they still actively stall progress for humanity where the focus is merely to soothe the terrible pains arising from the inherent existential crisis.
You love using "existential crisis" in relation to theists. Consider this, you are suffering from an existential crisis in your lack of intelligence to attack theism (borderline militantly) in a rational manner.

Comprehending Panentheism entails thinking karmically in 4 dimensions, which I will point out with your next shallow thought about the world.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 amHow can your belief in God help to alleviate hunger and other terrible evils & sufferings in the world?
It doesn't, and Y should it? Karma travels in down the line, those reincarnated into poverty were so due to their previous lives, they may have been fortunate depending on the level of their iniquity to reincarnate again as humans.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 amWith a belief in a God,
..far less so than those that don't believe in God, but do continue..

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 am ..some will even kill their parents, siblings, kins and non-believers when their consonance from a belief in a God is threatened with the slightest threats, e.g. drawing of cartoons, even disbelieving is a threat, etc.
Personally, I have not met one of those types of theists of ANY religion - clearly you must be surrounded by them. But sure, we all love to eat what they reincarnate as 666. (unless of course you don't enjoy eating the beasts)
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:32 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 am Even where the theism [pantheism, deism, panentheism] is benign, they still actively stall progress for humanity where the focus is merely to soothe the terrible pains arising from the inherent existential crisis.
You love using "existential crisis" in relation to theists. Consider this, you are suffering from an existential crisis in your lack of intelligence to attack theism (borderline militantly) in a rational manner.
Fact is, ALL humans are evolved with an inherent unavoidable existential crisis which generate terrible cognitive dissonances.

The majority of humans soothe their cognitive dissonances by resorting to theism.
Many of the seculars rely on other techniques and many ended with pain killers, drugs, escapism, and various good and evil habits.

I believe the most optimal solutions to ease the cognitive dissonances from the inherent existential crisis is resorting to theism or non-theistic religions at the present phase of evolution.
But the cons of theism are outweighing its pros and we move towards the future, as such humanity need to wean off theism to be replace by more effective & foolproof non-theistic methods.

Wherever there is major problem, it is critical we seek out [at least] the proximate root cause which is the existential crisis re theism.
Comprehending Panentheism entails thinking karmically in 4 dimensions, which I will point out with your next shallow thought about the world.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 amHow can your belief in God help to alleviate hunger and other terrible evils & sufferings in the world?
It doesn't, and Y should it? Karma travels in down the line, those reincarnated into poverty were so due to their previous lives, they may have been fortunate depending on the level of their iniquity to reincarnate again as humans.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 amWith a belief in a God,
..far less so than those that don't believe in God, but do continue..
Whatever you claimed, just provide the evidences, justifications and "proofs" convincingly on a rational basis.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 am ..some will even kill their parents, siblings, kins and non-believers when their consonance from a belief in a God is threatened with the slightest threats, e.g. drawing of cartoons, even disbelieving is a threat, etc.
Personally, I have not met one of those types of theists of ANY religion - clearly you must be surrounded by them. But sure, we all love to eat what they reincarnate as 666. (unless of course you don't enjoy eating the beasts)
Personally?? Surely you cannot be so ignorant of this evil?
Try drawing cartoons of Muhammad in front of a popular mosque in Luton Town or Birmingham UK on a Friday after their prayers, it is likely you won't be alive to experience the consequences.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:54 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:32 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:06 am Even where the theism [pantheism, deism, panentheism] is benign, they still actively stall progress for humanity where the focus is merely to soothe the terrible pains arising from the inherent existential crisis.
You love using "existential crisis" in relation to theists. Consider this, you are suffering from an existential crisis in your lack of intelligence to attack theism (borderline militantly) in a rational manner.
Fact is, ALL humans are evolved with an inherent unavoidable existential crisis which generate terrible cognitive dissonances.

I believe the most optimal solutions to ease the cognitive dissonances from the inherent existential crisis is resorting to theism or non-theistic religions at the present phase of evolution.
What non-theistic religions?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:54 amBut the cons of theism are outweighing its pros and we move towards the future, as such humanity need to wean off theism to be replace by more effective & foolproof non-theistic methods.
With regards to Christianity - so long as it is not forced upon children beyond what Christ taught, and certainly not included in any way in a non-religious school except perhaps for philosophical contemplation. I think the message of Christ makes believers in at LEAST his message(s), a positive for society at large.

I am certain murders, rapes, child molestation is increasing as a result in the growth of non-belief. I am not saying theists don't commit these acts, but when they do they are the greater fool. When I see a child murdered by someone on the news, as occurred recently to a 9 year old girl murdered by her step-father, I very much doubt that """man""" has any belief in the existence of God.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
attofishpi wrote:
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:54 amWherever there is major problem, it is critical we seek out [at least] the proximate root cause which is the existential crisis re theism. How can your belief in God help to alleviate hunger and other terrible evils & sufferings in the world?
It doesn't, and Y should it? Karma travels in down the line, those reincarnated into poverty were so due to their previous lives, they may have been fortunate depending on the level of their iniquity to reincarnate again as humans.

Comprehending Panentheism entails thinking karmically in 4 dimensions..
Whatever you claimed, just provide the evidences, justifications and "proofs" convincingly on a rational basis.
What do you want?

Evidence? that there is a 3rd party intelligence behind the construct of what we perceive as reality, commonly known as God\'God'? That reincarnation occurs? Both?

justifications? -- Well, it stands to reason that IF there is a God, that our actions will affect our destiny (karma).

proofs? -- see evidence question.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
attofishpi wrote:Personally, I have not met one of those types of theists of ANY religion - clearly you must be surrounded by them. But sure, we all love to eat what they reincarnate as 666. (unless of course you don't enjoy eating the beasts)
Personally?? Surely you cannot be so ignorant of this evil?
YES, personally I have never met the type of theist that, as you stated:- "kill their parents, siblings, kins and non-believers when their consonance from a belief in a God is threatened with the slightest threats, e.g. drawing of cartoons, even disbelieving is a threat

Veritas Aequitas wrote:Try drawing cartoons of Muhammad in front of a popular mosque in Luton Town or Birmingham UK on a Friday after their prayers, it is likely you won't be alive to experience the consequences.
So why would I do that? I don't think they would find it funny.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13414
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by henry quirk »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:58 amWhat non-theistic religions?
deism, for one
promethean75
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by promethean75 »

"I am certain murders, rapes, child molestation is increasing as a result in the growth of non-belief."

Oh reeely?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latime ... f_amp=true

That aside, here's a thing I posted elsewhere in an attempt to show the superficiality of repentance and the impossibility of proving it to be genuine. In other words, it's too easy merely to ask for forgiveness, and even mean it; this is why belief in god doesn't necessarily deter criminal acts. The challenge is to abstain from criminal activity for 'the right reasons' in a godless universe.

In fact, a good argument could be made that religion makes people kinda loopy, for two reasons; a constant state of paranoia (that a god is watching you), and the prohibition of otherwise natural behaviors. Think the religious bans on promiscuity, flogging the dolphin (every sperm is sacred ), and the demand for celibacy in certain circumstances (ah, now the pedo priests are no longer a mystery), the standardization of monogamous pairing, and the use of drugs.

Also, is there a correlation between poverty/scarcity and the crimes you mention? I'd think so. In less developed countries, it's obvious. In first world countries, it's a blue collar crime atmosphere almost exclusively.

Wait I'm not gonna turn this into another post criticizing capitalism/consumerism even though that's where it would inevitably lead.... so here's that thing about honesty in belief:

What is the cognitive state of 'honesty' like? I mean what is a being-honest behavior like? Do we observe honesty in behavior, or is it a description of a kind of mental state? Let's say it's that feeling u get when you know you aren't lying. But then there's this problem; lying can mean 'not telling the truth' as well as 'not really meaning it.'

By what criteria does a Christian know he 'doesn't really mean it'? He certainly knows when he's lying in the first sense, but what about the second? Say he speaks the words 'i believe in and love god'. How would he know he really meant that? He would know if he were lying in the first sense. That would be quite easy to do. But for the second sense, there is nothing against which to test the veracity of that honesty-state. He simply says it, and then says he 'meant it'. Again, where and what is this 'meant-ness'? Does he DO this behavior, or is it just a thought? Can he do something that would demonstrate he was lying, to an observer? We know he could demonstrate that he was lying in the first sense by acting in a way that contradicted his claims; says the money is in the box, but goes to the drawer to get it.

I don't want to make this exercise in existential phenomenology too complicated so I'll just go for the throat. The basis of Christian belief is entirely transparent and would require absolutely no effort at all on the part of the believer to demonstrate, either to himself or 'god'. Honesty in asking for forgiveness, and believing in god, is perfectly opaque. Consider this; I can be honest when I say 'i believe in god' solely on the grounds that I'm not able to prove god doesn't exist. That's all it takes... and how easy is that to do and be genuinely honest? There's nuthin to it

Accordingly, I could kill a million babies and a second before I die, say the words in my head 'i believe in and love god', and God would not be able to know if I were lying by virtue of the lack of veracity and demonstration of the behavior of belief itself.... the behavior, the action, of believing.

If a fellow can't even know himself the difference between such a state of honesty and dishonesty, neither can god. Remember, when the criminal is brought to his knees in tears in the prison church after having been sentenced to life, and, having lost everything, remembers that he can't prove god doesn't exist.... his brokenness is an authentic state. He's not pretending here, not faking a thing. Belief in god is his last resort, and he declares it in all honesty. He hopes god does exist, whereas before perhaps he hoped not. Now, who is to say this is not a genuine belief in god? And look how easy it is to do! By this fact alone, it cannot count for much... which is one of the reasons why Christianity is so fuckin corny. Belief is too easy... to easy to have honestly under the proper circumstances.

One's 'deeds' are what hold currency... but how and with whom are deeds mediated? In human intercourse. One certainly can't 'do for god' or 'with god', because he's entirely absent. Rather one does what one believes god would want him to do, with, to, and for other people.

As Feuerbach once kinda put it; there is absolutely no possibility of a connection between god and man, and everything a man would ever be able to do to express his love and honesty - that by Christian dictation would give man his salvation - would involve only men, as men, with men.

'god' is not only the vaguest of concepts, but also completely unnecessary as an intermediate between men and their affairs. So much so that by virtue of 'god's' disingenuousness, he ought to be ignored even if he did exist.
Post Reply