How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm


IC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

RC: "Because it's the nature of rocks to fall off cliffs, of course."

IC: ??????
RC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

IC: "Because the rock-falling demon made it fall."

RC: ??????
Except IC says, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc. made it fall."

Rock demons are another invention of RC's fevered imagination.
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RCSaunders
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:46 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 pm


IC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

RC: "Because it's the nature of rocks to fall off cliffs, of course."

IC: ??????
RC: "Why did this rock fall off this cliff?"

IC: "Because the rock-falling demon made it fall."

RC: ??????
Except IC says, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc. made it fall."

Rock demons are another invention of RC's fevered imagination.
Look, you make stuff up which I never said. Turn about is fair play.

RC said the rocks own nature, it's mass and weight, is why it fell. It's nature didn't, "make," it fall, as if it were some agent, it is the reason it fell, because if it had any other nature, was not heavey, it's reaction to changing conditions (which you are calling "causes,") would have been different. The same so-called causes you cite have no ability to cause anything to happen, they only change the context of the existents relative to them, and it is the nature of those existents that determines how they will react to those changes in context. " The very same, "Techtonics, or gravity, or frost damage...etc." will not result in any feathers or light wood falling, and rocks can certainly fall without any of those supposed, "causes."
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Immanuel Can
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:18 pm RC said the rocks own nature, it's mass and weight, is why it fell.
So tectonics, gravity, erosion, frost, the guy with the lever, dynamite, etc. had nothing to do with it?

The rock was heavy, and heavy things fall....and you think that's a causal explanation?

Nope.
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henry quirk
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by henry quirk »

All I know is...

...if I throw a rock at RC's noggin, and my aim is true, he's gonna bleed, be pissed, and mebbe have a headache.

That is: if I impart motion and direction (give a target) to a rock, I can cause an event. Cause & effect.

...and...

...if I throw an egg at Mannie's noggin, and my aim is true, he's gonna -- literally -- have egg on his face, and mebbe be pissed.

That is: if I impart motion and direction (give a target) to an egg, I can cause an event. Cause & effect.

Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.
seeds
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by seeds »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am You just keep throwing images at me.
And you just keep throwing words at me.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am I am aware via extensive literatures, certain people with mental illness, taken drugs, etc. are also drawing such pictures like yours.
It is likely you could be in the same set as theirs.

Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?

The truth of the matter is that I have admitted several times on this forum that when I was younger, I had a great deal of experience with a powerful entheogen that, in the words of Aldous Huxley, helped to open the "Doors of Perception" for me.

Furthermore, according to a certain hypothesis attributed to Terrence McKenna, it could quite possibly have been the random ingestion of certain psychoactive plants that helped to transform (awaken) the early hominids from their ape (animal) level of consciousness into the higher (and self-reflective) human level of consciousness.

Indeed, that could even be what is implied in the Eden myth, wherein the eating of a certain something bestowed mind-elevating knowledge to the eater.

It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...

Image

And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

Image

And the point is that anything or any circumstance that can "jar us out" of our fixed level of consciousness...

(such as entheogenic substances, or a near-death experience, or even a stroke as was experienced by Jill Bolte Taylor, etc.)

...which then gives us a completely different perspective on what we call "reality",...

(or, at the very least, helps some of us to see past the "shadows" in Plato's cave)

...may very well be vital to the ever-ascending evolution of human consciousness itself.

In which case, your obvious attempt to shine a negative light on "altered states of consciousness" is simply another example of your narrow-minded thinking, and is testament to the fact that you are still trapped in the aforementioned "fixed" level of consciousness.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am E.g. St. Paul suffered a one-off trigger of epiphany due to Temporal Epilepsy [likely] that changed him into a serious religious person.
So then, as a cautionary example of the "negative effects" of altered states of consciousness, you are going to use a person who helped usher-in the largest and most popular religion the world has ever known?

Interesting.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am If you do extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned you will note whatever "epiphanic experiences" you have had experienced are merely psychological and they happened in your brain.
Although I would substitute the word "brain" with the word "mind," the question is, where else would they happen? In my foot?

You've just reminded me that it's time to update your list of self-aggrandizing statements about your alleged abilities and achievements:
  • 1. Note I have martial arts background.

    2. Note I have done extensive research into the spirituality of human nature.

    3. I am inclined with one-upping knowledge.

    4. My struggle to be understood is on a par with the likes of Copernicus, Galileo, Socrates, Einstein, and Kant.

    5. I am an expert on Islam.

    6. I am an expert on Buddhism.

    7. I am an expert on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.

    8. I am an expert on "What is Philosophy."

    10. I've done extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned.

    11. Soon to be announced...
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RCSaunders
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:39 pm Neither rock or egg will do diddly ... till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to ...
Guess there will be no more baby chicks 'til henry makes them happen, and I doubt you'll be doing much of anything with a rock that weighs 900 pounds.

Of course in your magic world where, "causes," determine how things behave, no matter what their nature is, like miracles and supernatural revelation, anything is possible.
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henry quirk
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by henry quirk »

RC,

Guess there will be no more baby chicks 'til henry makes them happen, and I doubt you'll be doing much of anything with a rock that weighs 900 pounds.

Bitchiness is unbecomin', guy.

I wrote: Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.

And: I won't throw a 900 pounder (though, with the right machine, I could drop one on you).

Of course in your magic world where, "causes," determine how things behave, no matter what their nature is, like miracles and supernatural revelation, anything is possible.

Nice try, guy, but I don't believe in miracles or revelation.

Again: Neither rock or egg will do diddly (smack RC and Mannie) till I (or sumthin' or someone) cause them to, and both rock and egg will react to my (or sumthin's or someone's) action upon them accordin' to their individual natures.

I don't determine how rock or egg behave: I act upon them, each reacts accordin' to what it is.

It's cause & effect.

The rock does its thing (smashin' your sour face) becuz I act on it; the egg does its thing (crackin' open and engoopifyin' Mannie) becuz I act on it.

It's cause & effect.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am You just keep throwing images at me.
And you just keep throwing words at me.
Nope! it is rather arguments and 'seeking justification for what you are claiming' that I am throwing at you.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am I am aware via extensive literatures, certain people with mental illness, taken drugs, etc. are also drawing such pictures like yours.
It is likely you could be in the same set as theirs.

Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.

I had also posted extensively re Morality & Ethics.

Whatever I had posted is open to be countered by anyone.

Btw, I did not insist you have an obsession with yours but rather you are not providing sufficient justifications for your claims in this case. You may be focusing on other issues not related to this topic elsewhere which is none of my concern.
The truth of the matter is that I have admitted several times on this forum that when I was younger, I had a great deal of experience with a powerful entheogen that, in the words of Aldous Huxley, helped to open the "Doors of Perception" for me.

Furthermore, according to a certain hypothesis attributed to Terrence McKenna, it could quite possibly have been the random ingestion of certain psychoactive plants that helped to transform (awaken) the early hominids from their ape (animal) level of consciousness into the higher (and self-reflective) human level of consciousness.

Indeed, that could even be what is implied in the Eden myth, wherein the eating of a certain something bestowed mind-elevating knowledge to the eater.

It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...
"a powerful entheogen"
That is the reason why you have had those "epiphany experiences" as with all others who took various hallucinogens.
As I had suggested you need to exhaust whatever one need to know about 'altered states of consciousness'.

Point is whatever is experienced in altered states of consciousness cannot be confirmed with a conclusion God Exists.
Million of people have had such altered states of consciousness via hallucinogens, drugs, etc. but most do not translate to a claim God exists. Note Jill Bolte for example. Aldous Huxley was agnostic with a more heavier atheistic inclination.
You have to prove god exists as real.


And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

And the point is that anything or any circumstance that can "jar us out" of our fixed level of consciousness...

(such as entheogenic substances, or a near-death experience, or even a stroke as was experienced by Jill Bolte Taylor, etc.)

...which then gives us a completely different perspective on what we call "reality",...

(or, at the very least, helps some of us to see past the "shadows" in Plato's cave)

...may very well be vital to the ever-ascending evolution of human consciousness itself.

In which case, your obvious attempt to shine a negative light on "altered states of consciousness" is simply another example of your narrow-minded thinking, and is testament to the fact that you are still trapped in the aforementioned "fixed" level of consciousness.
I did not insist "altered states of consciousness" [ASC] is negative.
It is just that one cannot hinge on ASC to insist God exists as real.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am E.g. St. Paul suffered a one-off trigger of epiphany due to Temporal Epilepsy [likely] that changed him into a serious religious person.
So then, as a cautionary example of the "negative effects" of altered states of consciousness, you are going to use a person who helped usher-in the largest and most popular religion the world has ever known?
Interesting.
There are links between Temporal Lobe Epilepsy [TLE] and altered states of consciousness.
There are many famous spiritual personalities who seemingly had suffered from TLE as evident from the experiences they had reported.

Since you mentioned "powerful entheogen" your case may not related to TLE but you cannot be sure unless you get it checked.
Note:
Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 1
youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg&t=1s

In extreme cases, even a brain tumor [in addition to other brain damage] can triggered altered states of consciousness.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am If you do extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned you will note whatever "epiphanic experiences" you have had experienced are merely psychological and they happened in your brain.
Although I would substitute the word "brain" with the word "mind," the question is, where else would they happen? In my foot?
This is not an issue.
If you prefer it is brain/mind which I often referred to.
You've just reminded me that it's time to update your list of self-aggrandizing statements about your alleged abilities and achievements:
  • 1. Note I have martial arts background.

    2. Note I have done extensive research into the spirituality of human nature.

    3. I am inclined with one-upping knowledge.

    4. My struggle to be understood is on a par with the likes of Copernicus, Galileo, Socrates, Einstein, and Kant.

    5. I am an expert on Islam.

    6. I am an expert on Buddhism.

    7. I am an expert on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason.

    8. I am an expert on "What is Philosophy."

    10. I've done extensive research into "altered states of consciousness" leaving no stones unturned.

    11. Soon to be announced...

I am not claiming my expertise is 99/100 but ranges from 60/100 to 80/100 depending on the subject.

Here is one more, "I have >12,000 files [books, articles, notes, etc.] in 739 sub-Folders in my "Philosophy" Folder [given some duplications].

I had deliberately put in the necessary efforts to achieve them, so there is no shame to claim them which is relevant in any intellectual discussion on where I stand.

Meanwhile you are merely relying on some hallucinogens, i.e. the lazy man's way to get high.
seeds
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by seeds »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 am Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.
The fact that Kant might hold some sway in the world of philosophy has nothing to do with you "proving" that your fanboy obsession with him isn't based on...

(to use the same words that you use on me)

...your own personal "existential crisis" in the form of a "subliminal inferiority complex" that causes you to seek-out a hero figure (Kant) to help soothe your "inherent cognitive dissonance."

So go ahead, Veritas, give me some empirically verifiable "PROOF" that what I just suggested about your personal psychological status isn't true.

Veritas, you are the quintessential "naysayer."

You are the type of person that history looks back on as being a member of the general group of non-productive, unimaginative humans who, having no true understanding of what was being offered, nevertheless, made it their life's mission to denigrate the works and efforts of the world's innovators.

I mean, aside from your idolizing and parroting the words of a smelly old man from the past, and aside from your nihilistic vision of reality that implies that there is no ultimate and eternal purpose for humans as individuals,...

...what exactly are you offering to humans that might give them a glimmer of "hope" that there might be more to life than what meets the eye?

For example, what words of comfort and solace do you have to offer to grieving parents who just lost their young child to a disease?

Image

Or what specific words or vital aspect of your philosophy would be useful for this little girl to recall...

Image

...in the few remaining moments before the vulture comes in to devour her flesh?

Come on now, Veritas, give me the best and most memorable lines from your materialistic philosophy that will help these humans endure their darkest hours on earth.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: How Are The Mind And Brain Related?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:32 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:40 am Can you prove what you experienced has nothing to do with some elements of a mental issue [mild, serious or one-off]?
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm No, I cannot "prove" such a thing.

On the other hand, can you "prove" that your obsession with the writings of Kant isn't born of some mental issue (some "existential crisis") of your own?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 am Note this is a Philosophy forum and Kant is one of the Greatest Of ALL Times [GOAT] philosopher. There is specialization in most fields of knowledge, thus in this case of philosophy, I have a special focus on Kant because he is the GOAT re philosophers.
The fact that Kant might hold some sway in the world of philosophy has nothing to do with you "proving" that your fanboy obsession with him isn't based on...

(to use the same words that you use on me)

...your own personal "existential crisis" in the form of a "subliminal inferiority complex" that causes you to seek-out a hero figure (Kant) to help soothe your "inherent cognitive dissonance."

So go ahead, Veritas, give me some empirically verifiable "PROOF" that what I just suggested about your personal psychological status isn't true.

Veritas, you are the quintessential "naysayer."

You are the type of person that history looks back on as being a member of the general group of non-productive, unimaginative humans who, having no true understanding of what was being offered, nevertheless, made it their life's mission to denigrate the works and efforts of the world's innovators.

I mean, aside from your idolizing and parroting the words of a smelly old man from the past, and aside from your nihilistic vision of reality that implies that there is no ultimate and eternal purpose for humans as individuals,...

...what exactly are you offering to humans that might give them a glimmer of "hope" that there might be more to life than what meets the eye?

For example, what words of comfort and solace do you have to offer to grieving parents who just lost their young child to a disease?

Image

Or what specific words or vital aspect of your philosophy would be useful for this little girl to recall...

Image

...in the few remaining moments before the vulture comes in to devour her flesh?

Come on now, Veritas, give me the best and most memorable lines from your materialistic philosophy that will help these humans endure their darkest hours on earth.
_______
Come on man! You are making too much noise based on ignorance and with no sound justifications [smelly old man?? :roll: :mrgreen: ]
Btw, I am not into materialism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

I have presented this non-theistic solution [in iterative continuous improvement mode] for mankind which is in line with principles from Kant.

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

For those who are able to align with it and execute the practices, it will resolve the cognitive dissonances of their inherent existence crisis as it has been doing since 2500 years ago. The long terms goals for humanity are in its justified potentials.

What is most critical is, the above is on a progressive positive trend towards the future in promoting perpetual peace for mankind.

OTOH, theism [and its varying kinds] had contributed terrible evils to mankind and will continue to do so eternally [note especially Islam which is inherently evil].
Even where the theism [pantheism, deism, panentheism] is benign, they still actively stall progress for humanity where the focus is merely to soothe the terrible pains arising from the inherent existential crisis.

How can your belief in God help to alleviate hunger [re the image you linked] and other terrible evils & sufferings in the world?
Note China recently declared its have alleviated poverty.
How China has lifted nearly 800 million people out of poverty
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-0 ... 862741.htm
and that was done without any belief in a God!

With a belief in a God, some will even kill their parents, siblings, kins and non-believers when their consonance from a belief in a God is threatened with the slightest threats, e.g. drawing of cartoons, even disbelieving is a threat, etc.

Btw seriously, to do rational justice to yourself, I strongly suggest you exhaust everything that is to know about 'altered states of consciousness' to get the realization where you fit therein. This is all about self-knowledge [know thyself] rather than propaganda from outside. It will definitely relieve you of a great burden.
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