solving language

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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Advocate
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solving language

Post by Advocate »

In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
Last edited by Advocate on Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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the design is done...

Post by henry quirk »

Esperanto
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RCSaunders
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Re: solving language

Post by RCSaunders »

Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this language problem.
First of all, who is, "we," and whatever (or whoever) you mean by that we, what makes it their business to solve anyone else's probems. Have you asked humanity if they really want you to solve whatever problems you think they have?

Secondly, what do you think the problem with language is? Is there something about knowledge you don't like? The whole purpose of language is knowledge, the means of identifying and holding one's understanding of what is and what its nature is. I think you probably make the mistake most philosophers make, thinking the main purpose of language is communication--IT ISN'T!

The main purpose of language is knowledge. A second, derivative, purpose of language is communication. You have to first know something before you can communicate it. As far I can see, everyone who chooses to is having no problem with using language to learn, and when they choose to, to communicate.

Thirdly, why should there be only one language? Are you too lazy to learn another one. Do you want to deprive individuals of being able to choose which language or languages they would like to learn and use? Do you also recommend that there only be one kind of food, one kind of dress, one kind of entertainment?

There is no problem of humanity. There are only individual human problems.
commonsense
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Re: solving language

Post by commonsense »

Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this language problem.
In order to solve a problem, it must be defined first.

So, please explain what this problem is so that I can work on solving it with you.
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bahman
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Re: solving language

Post by bahman »

Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
I think that English is good enough.
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RCSaunders
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Re: solving language

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:26 pm
Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
I think that English is good enough.
It was.

Almost no one can speak, write or understand it anymore. Sad!

Ask the next hundred English speakers you know what the eight principles parts of speech are, what a gerund, infinitive, or participle is, what a subject and predicate are, what verb agreement means, what the antecendent of a pronoun is, or what the almost-lost subjunctive mode is? Ask them why almost-lost is hyphenated. Good luck finding even one who can answer those basic questions of their own language.
Advocate
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Re: solving language

Post by Advocate »

[quote=RCSaunders post_id=514120 time=1623789333 user_id=16196]
[quote=bahman post_id=514114 time=1623781606 user_id=12593]
[quote=Advocate post_id=508849 time=1619390316 user_id=15238]
In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
[/quote]
I think that English is good enough.
[/quote]
It was.

Almost no one can speak, write or understand it anymore. Sad!

Ask the next hundred English speakers you know what the eight principles parts of speech are, what a gerund, infinitive, or participle is, what a subject and predicate are, what verb agreement means, what the antecendent of a pronoun is, or what the almost-lost subjunctive mode is? Ask them why almost-lost is hyphenated. Good luck finding even one who can answer those basic questions of their own language.
[/quote]

Those are basic questions that basically never come up, so they're basically a hobby, not useful knowledge. We're inundated with things we ought to know and the minimum is the default for any given subject.
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bahman
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Re: solving language

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:26 pm
Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
I think that English is good enough.
It was.
It is.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 pm Almost no one can speak, write or understand it anymore. Sad!
You are not serious. The human population would die if they cannot understand each other through language.
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 pm Ask the next hundred English speakers you know what the eight principles parts of speech are, what a gerund, infinitive, or participle is, what a subject and predicate are, what verb agreement means, what the antecendent of a pronoun is, or what the almost-lost subjunctive mode is? Ask them why almost-lost is hyphenated. Good luck finding even one who can answer those basic questions of their own language.
You are talking about formulating the language. It is nice to know them but people don't need them since they understand what do you mean through the language. They learn the language through conditioning.
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RCSaunders
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Re: solving language

Post by RCSaunders »

bahman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:29 pm You are talking about formulating the language. It is nice to know them but people don't need them since they understand what do you mean through the language. They learn the language through conditioning.
When will you start learning it?

Blabbering gibberish using some English words is not speaking the English language.
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bahman
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Re: solving language

Post by bahman »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:16 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:29 pm You are talking about formulating the language. It is nice to know them but people don't need them since they understand what do you mean through the language. They learn the language through conditioning.
When will you start learning it?
I learned a lot a long time ago. I have a bad memory so I forgot a lot too. I use Grammarly to correct my writing. I have a couple of threads about the language. Currently, I am thinking that how abstract ideas, including language formulation, can form from conditioning.
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:16 pm Blabbering gibberish using some English words is not speaking the English language.
Do you have any problem understanding me?
AlexW
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Re: solving language

Post by AlexW »

Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem.
I think the main reason why there are communication problems is that language is ambiguous.
Its not the language as such, but all the different meanings, all the possible interpretations that create misunderstandings (and lead to problems).
Remove ambiguity and you have solved the communication problem - but you have also removed the freedom of creative/personal interpretation.

Mathematics has removed ambiguity to a degree - yet there still seem to be many different personal interpretations (at least to more complex problems than just 1+2=3) - anyway I am not mathematically minded, but it seems that, to achieve one goal (communication without misunderstandings) one has to sacrifice many other things that humanity holds dear (personal opinions etc etc).
Advocate
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Re: solving language

Post by Advocate »

[quote=AlexW post_id=514253 time=1623884202 user_id=15862]
[quote=Advocate post_id=508849 time=1619390316 user_id=15238]
In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem.
[/quote]
I think the main reason why there are communication problems is that language is ambiguous.
Its not the language as such, but all the different meanings, all the possible interpretations that create misunderstandings (and lead to problems).
Remove ambiguity and you have solved the communication problem - but you have also removed the freedom of creative/personal interpretation.

Mathematics has removed ambiguity to a degree - yet there still seem to be many different personal interpretations (at least to more complex problems than just 1+2=3) - anyway I am not mathematically minded, but it seems that, to achieve one goal (communication without misunderstandings) one has to sacrifice many other things that humanity holds dear (personal opinions etc etc).
[/quote]

Science is rigor. Logic is a subset of science that always replicates. Math is a subset of logic that deals with quantity. Quantity is recursive boundary conditions.
gaffo
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Re: solving language

Post by gaffo »

Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
all languages are "good enough" per histroy English - due to the Brit empire - has made Englsih the universal language.

again any would work - history chose english as the one global language.

it serves as well as any other would have.

- your point?
gaffo
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Re: solving language

Post by gaffo »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:31 pm
Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this language problem.
First of all, who is, "we," and whatever (or whoever) you mean by that we, what makes it their business to solve anyone else's probems. Have you asked humanity if they really want you to solve whatever problems you think they have?

Secondly, what do you think the problem with language is? Is there something about knowledge you don't like? The whole purpose of language is knowledge, the means of identifying and holding one's understanding of what is and what its nature is. I think you probably make the mistake most philosophers make, thinking the main purpose of language is communication--IT ISN'T!

The main purpose of language is knowledge. A second, derivative, purpose of language is communication. You have to first know something before you can communicate it. As far I can see, everyone who chooses to is having no problem with using language to learn, and when they choose to, to communicate.

Thirdly, why should there be only one language? Are you too lazy to learn another one. Do you want to deprive individuals of being able to choose which language or languages they would like to learn and use? Do you also recommend that there only be one kind of food, one kind of dress, one kind of entertainment?

There is no problem of humanity. There are only individual human problems.
disagree the function of language is to communicate. per that mandate all languages wer good enough, english won out per histroy - i have a huge problem with its spelling - which is not phonetic enough - and i offered a nice quick fix to make english spelling confomr with phonitic 3 yrs ago right here - but i'm just a no-body - so though apt and would make english phonetic pr its written form - will never come to be. sadly. ;-/.
gaffo
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Re: solving language

Post by gaffo »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:26 pm
Advocate wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 pm In order to get humanity's problems ironed out, we're going to have to solve this communication problem. There's no way to create a perfect language and it will evolve right away anyway, but we have to have one language for everyone, so let's get the principles straight.

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of a language for everyone?
What is the proper order of prioritizing those conditions?

Is there any currently existing language that meets these priorities?
If not, is there any currently existing language that can be modified to do so?

Who will begin the design process?
I think that English is good enough.
it is - but per my (i wish i was world dictator and then would make englsih phonetic!!!!!!!) viww.

its the defacto universal language - but its spellig is fucked up - hense my "fix" offered by me 3 yrs ago in this area of the fourm. - its clear and thoughfull - so find it if you wish to - i hope you do so we can talk about it - but as said before i'm just a no-body so ven though my "fix" would make - force Englsih to be fully phonetic - being a no-body, it shall not be fixed sadly.
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