You must be an idiot

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
The way I figure it ...

- Irony is a likely precursor to sarcasm.
- Life is ironic when one becomes what one hates instead of what one loves.
- Irony is when action takes one further from intent.
- Once irony is realized, sarcasm can ensue.
- Early exposure to sarcasm can lead to an ironic life.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

Walker wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:02 am
Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
The way I figure it ...

- Irony is a likely precursor to sarcasm.
- Life is ironic when one becomes what one hates instead of what one loves.
- Irony is when action takes one further from intent.
- Once irony is realized, sarcasm can ensue.
- Early exposure to sarcasm can lead to an ironic life.
With all of those conditions it's hard to be sarcastic or ironic. It only works if done at the right time.
Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:25 am
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:02 am
Dubious wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am Sarcasm like irony is an art. Some notice the value-added vibrations but many don't. For them it's like listening to classical music to which they're tone-deaf.
The way I figure it ...

- Irony is a likely precursor to sarcasm.
- Life is ironic when one becomes what one hates instead of what one loves.
- Irony is when action takes one further from intent.
- Once irony is realized, sarcasm can ensue.
- Early exposure to sarcasm can lead to an ironic life.
With all of those conditions it's hard to be sarcastic or ironic. It only works if done at the right time.
You’re at the wrong end of the horse, cowboy.
Here’s the OP:
How is sarcasm recognized in common speech?
The OP is about experiencing sarcasm.
Recognition means recognition of elements that comprise a condition of sarcasm.

You’ve switched the topic to the creation of sarcasm.
That’s different.
To create sarcasm, all you need do is be a spontaneous jerk.

That should come naturally to you.

That last sentence is used as an example of sarcasm that works because it's done at the right time, which is in context, and because it is somewhat personal. (It's not meant to express an opinion, it's just an example) ... but if you felt a bit of a twinge, that's because sarcasm is a form of violence, at least in the intellectual realm which is the written word.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

Walker wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 pm You’re at the wrong end of the horse, cowboy.
This from a guy who wrote...

You should be so lucky as to have more like Trump.


...no sarcasm intended!
Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:42 am
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 pm You’re at the wrong end of the horse, cowboy.
This from a guy who wrote...

You should be so lucky as to have more like Trump.


...no sarcasm intended!
In that case, both are accurate. The contradiction is only in your head. Since you were at the wrong end of the horse then the contradiction lies in Trump perception. Lucky to have Trump means prosperity for the country, and the world. Lots of objective evidence to support that. Unfortunately, that conflicts with a lot of DC realities.
Dubious
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Dubious »

Walker wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:53 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:42 am
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 pm You’re at the wrong end of the horse, cowboy.
This from a guy who wrote...

You should be so lucky as to have more like Trump.


...no sarcasm intended!
In that case, both are accurate. The contradiction is only in your head. Since you were at the wrong end of the horse then the contradiction lies in Trump perception. Lucky to have Trump means prosperity for the country, and the world. Lots of objective evidence to support that. Unfortunately, that conflicts with a lot of DC realities.
You're either an inmate from a lunatic asylum claiming objective evidence - which there is in abundance but mostly in the negative, or some creature communicating from the ass-end of the universe!

Trump now demands a 21 gun salute on the same day as Biden's inauguration. I think Trump should receive it especially with real bullets standing right in front of it as the miserable, loathsome coward and traitor that he is.
Walker
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Walker »

What in the world could cause this condition. Sounds like someone’s looking for a happy place where folks get real or imagined hurt no more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMUVKuSJHco
Iwannaplato
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:22 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm My point being that people don't really want to know what is going on beneath the surface. So when someone is sarcastic, they are already in a kind of default, let's not notice the contradictions mode.
I don’t think so. Sarcasm is born of a perception that one knows what is going on under the surface. If sarcasm is attempted while ignorant of the false premises that cause the contradiction then one is simply asserting bigotry, and attempted sarcasm ends up as impotent, ignorant projection.
I didn't mean it was binary. LIke we never recognize irony or sarcasm. We never notice that someone is smiling but they look scared, etc. Most people notice some things. But I think there is a general fear about noticing a lot of the mixed messages and this can play out as a factor when someone is ironic, merely joking, being sarcastic. I think people often would rather accept a positive message despite mixed signals. And given that often the people sending them may not even be aware themselves, to notice and comment on them can be quite problematic. I was also referring to the receiver not the sender.
Iwannaplato
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Iwannaplato »

Dubious wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:57 am Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony and a little more ingenious than you make it out to be if done right.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... f-sarcasm/
Yes...
Put another way: sarcasm is a specific form of verbal irony. When someone laughs at a person wearing a fanny pack and says "Nice fanny pack, nerd," that's sarcasm—but it's also verbal irony, since what they really mean is something like "Your fanny pack looks dumb." Not all examples of verbal irony are examples of sarcasm, but all examples of sarcasm are ironic.
I. What is Sarcasm?
Sarcasm is a form of verbal irony that mocks, ridicules, or expresses contempt. It’s really more a tone of voice than a rhetorical device. You’re saying the opposite of what you mean (verbal irony) and doing it in a particularly hostile tone.
the second from
https://literaryterms.net/sarcasm/

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attofishpi
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by attofishpi »

Walker wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:22 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm My point being that people don't really want to know what is going on beneath the surface. So when someone is sarcastic, they are already in a kind of default, let's not notice the contradictions mode.
I don’t think so. Sarcasm is born of a perception that one knows what is going on under the surface. If sarcasm is attempted while ignorant of the false premises that cause the contradiction then one is simply asserting bigotry, and attempted sarcasm ends up as impotent, ignorant projection.
Walker, you are certainly one of the wisest most perceptive people that post on this forum. It is just ironic that the more intelligent posters don't see it that way. :P
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Terrapin Station
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Terrapin Station »

We detect sarcasm, facetiousness, and the like based on its departure from norms, which fuel expectations, including knowledge of what a particular person is likely to think or say. In order to be able to pick up on such things one has to be familiar with and be able to understand and predict norms, plus one has to be capable of and have a decent capacity for not reading everything "literally." Part of being capable of understanding normal language usage is being able to easily tell when language usage shifts between literal and non-literal--which normal language usage frequently does.

There are various conditions or tendencies that people can have that interfere with this. Conditions where everything tends to be read "literally," where there is a reduced capacity to understand and predict normal language usage. Because of the nature of the Internet, it can attract people who have these issues, people who avoid normal offline socializing situations because of these difficulties. This contributes to sarcasm being more challenging to convey online.
Age
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Age »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am We detect sarcasm, facetiousness, and the like based on its departure from norms, which fuel expectations, including knowledge of what a particular person is likely to think or say. In order to be able to pick up on such things one has to be familiar with and be able to understand and predict norms, plus one has to be capable of and have a decent capacity for not reading everything "literally." Part of being capable of understanding normal language usage is being able to easily tell when language usage shifts between literal and non-literal--which normal language usage frequently does.
WHY does, so called, "normal" language/writings, supposedly, frequently swap between the literal and the non literal?

Are you able to ALWAYS understand and predict, so called, "norms"?

By the way, it is EXTREMELY EASY to NOT read, and NOT write, everything 'literally'. But how SIMPLE and EASY is it for 'you', "terrapin station", to be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND when one is occurring and when one is NOT.

How good do you rate "yourself" at knowing what a particular person is likely to think or say?

And, how good do you rate "yourself" at being able to easily tell when language usage shifts between literal, "and non literal", let us say?
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am There are various conditions or tendencies that people can have that interfere with this. Conditions where everything tends to be read "literally," where there is a reduced capacity to understand and predict normal language usage.
LOL with your CONTINUED use of the word "normal", as if there was such a REAL thing to over 100 Billion human beings.

You continually speak as if you ACTUALLY KNOW what the "normal" use of words ARE, and what the "normal" meaning of their definitions ARE.

You have SHOWN that you have a HUGE TENDENCY to BELIEVE that WHAT you SEE, and HOW you SEE 'things', is the "normal" or "right" way, and that if ANY one SEES ANY thing DIFFERENTLY, then they do NOT see correctly, or, in other words, are just plain and simply ab, sub, or NOT "normal"
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am Because of the nature of the Internet, it can attract people who have these issues, people who avoid normal offline socializing situations because of these difficulties. This contributes to sarcasm being more challenging to convey online.
REALLY?
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Sculptor
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:44 pm How is sarcasm recognized in common speech?

When spoken, it is expressed with a falsetto tone. NOT. If written, the font must differ in color or boldness. NOT.

Sarcasm is recognized by its context. However, there are some individuals who fail to interpret sarcasm correctly, especially in those instances when the text or context is subtle.

Why can’t everybody understand sarcasm every time? Is there a difference in the individuals or in the sarcasm per se?

BTW, you must be an idiot.
I suppose you have to be a native speaker of English. It's Americans that fail to recognise irony or sarcasm.
commonsense
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:29 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:44 pm How is sarcasm recognized in common speech?

When spoken, it is expressed with a falsetto tone. NOT. If written, the font must differ in color or boldness. NOT.

Sarcasm is recognized by its context. However, there are some individuals who fail to interpret sarcasm correctly, especially in those instances when the text or context is subtle.

Why can’t everybody understand sarcasm every time? Is there a difference in the individuals or in the sarcasm per se?

BTW, you must be an idiot.
I suppose you have to be a native speaker of English. It's Americans that fail to recognise irony or sarcasm.
So subtle. LOL.
commonsense
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Re: You must be an idiot

Post by commonsense »

Age wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:42 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am We detect sarcasm, facetiousness, and the like based on its departure from norms, which fuel expectations, including knowledge of what a particular person is likely to think or say. In order to be able to pick up on such things one has to be familiar with and be able to understand and predict norms, plus one has to be capable of and have a decent capacity for not reading everything "literally." Part of being capable of understanding normal language usage is being able to easily tell when language usage shifts between literal and non-literal--which normal language usage frequently does.
WHY does, so called, "normal" language/writings, supposedly, frequently swap between the literal and the non literal?

Are you able to ALWAYS understand and predict, so called, "norms"?

By the way, it is EXTREMELY EASY to NOT read, and NOT write, everything 'literally'. But how SIMPLE and EASY is it for 'you', "terrapin station", to be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND when one is occurring and when one is NOT.

How good do you rate "yourself" at knowing what a particular person is likely to think or say?

And, how good do you rate "yourself" at being able to easily tell when language usage shifts between literal, "and non literal", let us say?
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am There are various conditions or tendencies that people can have that interfere with this. Conditions where everything tends to be read "literally," where there is a reduced capacity to understand and predict normal language usage.
LOL with your CONTINUED use of the word "normal", as if there was such a REAL thing to over 100 Billion human beings.

You continually speak as if you ACTUALLY KNOW what the "normal" use of words ARE, and what the "normal" meaning of their definitions ARE.

You have SHOWN that you have a HUGE TENDENCY to BELIEVE that WHAT you SEE, and HOW you SEE 'things', is the "normal" or "right" way, and that if ANY one SEES ANY thing DIFFERENTLY, then they do NOT see correctly, or, in other words, are just plain and simply ab, sub, or NOT "normal"
Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 am Because of the nature of the Internet, it can attract people who have these issues, people who avoid normal offline socializing situations because of these difficulties. This contributes to sarcasm being more challenging to convey online.
REALLY?
Age, if only you understood the concept of normalcy...Normal has no requirement to be correct. It only has to be the most common, the median, the majority. It doesn’t even have to be the average. The most common is the norm.

Understanding this might change what you wrote.
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