The meaning of emergence

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:42 am
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:34 am Yes, I think you missed my point. Iron is Ferromagnetic at a low temperature. The reason is that the spin of atoms prefer to line up since that reduce total energy. At higher temperature, the Iron is Parramagnet since kinetic energy is higher and that causes that spin of atoms to move randomly which this leads to the cancelation of spin in total. So as you can see there is no magic involved and everything is explanatory.
I'm still not seeing how that helps us with the emergence of consciousness. There must be some analogy I'm not catching, because obviously the relationship isn't direct. You're only talking about materials and material properties.
Consciousness is the ability of the mind. Consciousness cannot emerge since there is emergence either.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:16 pm Consciousness is the ability of the mind.
Nobody thinks otherwise. "Consciousness" and "mind" are both non-material properties. The emergence question deals with how we get things like "mind" and "consciousness" out of things like mere "meat" (brain), or how we even get the "meat"out of totally inorganic matter like particles of oxygen and hydrogen, or out of inert carbon.
Consciousness cannot emerge since there is emergence either.
Something's wrong with the grammar in this sentence. I can't tell what it means.
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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:26 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:16 pm Consciousness is the ability of the mind.
Nobody thinks otherwise. "Consciousness" and "mind" are both non-material properties. The emergence question deals with how we get things like "mind" and "consciousness" out of things like mere "meat" (brain), or how we even get the "meat"out of totally inorganic matter like particles of oxygen and hydrogen, or out of inert carbon.
The mind is not a property. The mind is a thing. Your essence.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:26 pm
Consciousness cannot emerge since there is emergence either.
Something's wrong with the grammar in this sentence. I can't tell what it means.
I mean I argued that there is emergence. Therefore the consciousness cannot possibly be an emergent property.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:58 pm The mind is not a property. The mind is a thing.
For sure it's not that, unless you include immaterial things in "thing." But it's certainly not a material "thing."

I agree that the problem with "emergence" as an idea is it requires the supposition of immaterial "things" popping out of "material" things -- i.e. the evolutionary-materialist hypothesis.
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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:09 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:58 pm The mind is not a property. The mind is a thing.
For sure it's not that, unless you include immaterial things in "thing." But it's certainly not a material "thing."

I agree that the problem with "emergence" as an idea is it requires the supposition of immaterial "things" popping out of "material" things -- i.e. the evolutionary-materialist hypothesis.
Cool. So we are in the same page.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:43 pm Cool. So we are in the same page.
So....according to you, from where does "consciousness" come? What accounts for the fact that it exists at all?
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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:55 am
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:43 pm Cool. So we are in the same page.
So....according to you, from where does "consciousness" come? What accounts for the fact that it exists at all?
Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
Skepdick
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
Minds are emergent properties of brains.
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Skepdick wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:44 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
Minds are emergent properties of brains.
If, as is the case, you cannot have functioning mind without functioning brain, and vice versa, will you still say mind emerges from brain?

It seems to me 'emerges from' implies a time lapse and therefore that minds and brains evolved separately.

True, there are creatures with tiny brains however it's reasonable to presume they also have tiny minds that evolved at exactly the same pace.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:55 am
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:43 pm Cool. So we are in the same page.
So....according to you, from where does "consciousness" come? What accounts for the fact that it exists at all?
Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
This doesn't help. We all know that consciousness is "an ability of the mind"...the emergence problem is, "Where does the mind come from?" :shock: That's the one you have to answer, if an answer you have.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Skepdick wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:44 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
Minds are emergent properties of brains.
All you've done here is to restate the problem, not solve it in any way. The issue is that "emergent" doesn't mean anything specific. It just means "somehow jumps out of," or "somehow proceeds from." It doesn't describe the process it identifies, but rather takes for granted that "it happens somehow."

The "somehow" is the problem: HOW? :shock:
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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Skepdick wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:44 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
Minds are emergent properties of brains.
So mind which is the by-product of the brain affects the brain? That is circular since something whose very existence depends on something else can affect the source!
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bahman
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Re: The meaning of emergence

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:04 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:35 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:55 am
So....according to you, from where does "consciousness" come? What accounts for the fact that it exists at all?
Consciousness does not emerge. It is an ability of the mind.
This doesn't help. We all know that consciousness is "an ability of the mind"...the emergence problem is, "Where does the mind come from?" :shock: That's the one you have to answer, if an answer you have.
Mind cannot emerge. It is eternal. It cannot be created or destroyed. Again, there is no such thing as emergence.
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Re: The meaning of emergence

Post by Nick_A »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:35 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:08 am
bahman wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:18 am
Well, the properties of parts can cancel each other in a specific condition so a specific set of properties do not show up in the whole. Think of Iron for example. Iron is Ferromagnet (Ferromagnet is a state that the whole has a magnetic moment while parts have) in a specific condition and Paramagnet (Paramagnet is a state that the whole does not have a magnetic moment while parts have) in another specific condition. This applies to all properties which can or cannot be observed in a system depending on the conditions.

Evolution of course is in the play, for example, to have a visionary system among species in the material world.
Emergence is an attribute of third force. You are explaining it through duality or what I know of as subject and object. In the intro It is a way of setting the table. Do you agree with how the relationship between subject and object has changed over time. What is real remains the same but how we interpret it creates our reality.
1. Introduction
The relation between the Subject and the Object is a crucial problem of philosophy.
This relation varied in the different periods of human culture. In the pre-modern
world, the Subject was immersed in the Object. In the modern world, the Object and the
Subject were supposed to be totally separated, while in our post-modern era the Subject
becomes predominant as compared with the Object (see figures).
Of course, the key point in understanding the Object-Subject relation is the vision on
Reality that humans shared in different periods of the historical time......................
What is the third force? What do you mean by object and subject?
Probably the easiest way to describe third force is the example of the seesaw. Imagine two kids plying on a seesaw. The subject or active force is the kid pushing down. Then they switch. The kid who was active force is now the passive force and the other pushing down becomes active force.

The third force is the seesaw itself which allows them to act as one from a higher perspective.

Are you familiar with the Platonic triad? God is the GOOD. On the first tier beneath God is the first emanation of the GOOD into the three forms of truth, beauty, and justice. In the GOOD they are ONE while as nous they are three.

The question is if the three forces evolve to become GOD or does the GOOD involve into the three initial three forms? Emanation or emergence is then the process of the quality of being of the higher involving into the lower. Suns emerge from a galaxy

In the world a man as active force (yang) unites with a woman representing passive force (yin) to produce a child or the third force which reconciles them in which the essence of both exist. In traditional marriage the man and woman unite as one by the third force in the sight of higher consciousness
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The meaning of emergence

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:47 pm Mind cannot emerge. It is eternal. It cannot be created or destroyed. Again, there is no such thing as emergence.
Then where does the body come from? Do you suppose that it can "emerge" from the mind?
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