Unproven assumptions

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commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:22 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
I think not.
"It seems to me" is almost directly identical in meaning to an assumption.
An assumption is a state where what "seems to be the case" is applied unchallenged.
That something seems to the author to be what it seems to the author is not an assumption on the part of the author nor on the part of the sentence. It is, however in assumption for the reader.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:28 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:14 am
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".
No, that is not correct since what is reality is a matter of proof rather than what it seems to us. You are assuming that what seems to you is true.
Yes, but the author knows whether something seems to be whatever it seems to be to the author. In other words, this is not an assumption on the part of the author.

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Sculptor
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Sculptor » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:18 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:22 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
I think not.
"It seems to me" is almost directly identical in meaning to an assumption.
An assumption is a state where what "seems to be the case" is applied unchallenged.
That something seems to the author to be what it seems to the author is not an assumption on the part of the author nor on the part of the sentence. It is, however in assumption for the reader.
LOL
I knew your name was bullsh1t.
Your sentence does not ever parse, let alone pass.
What seems to you is what you are assuming to be the case.
You can't wriggle out if that.

Skepdick
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:52 pm
I think that it’s a matter of timing, in addition to a matter of proof. The subtle difference is in the prefixes.

A presumption is an unproved concept that is held beforehand, I.e. before the conversation began.

On the other hand, an assumption is an unproved concept that is accepted during a discussion.
It's a matter of epistemic criterion.

If we accept the premise "If a concept is proven then it is not an assumption" to be true, then all you need to ask in order to cast doubt is thus:

Is it proven? How? What is proof?

And you should know damn well that "What is X?" is an ontological question with no solution.

Age
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:51 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:23 am
duszek wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:17 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:59 pm

swiftly? no... assumptions hold existence together...

there is no guarantee that future events will even occur or that they will resemble past events...

-Imp
Yes, Mr Imp.
We assume things to be in a certain way in the world.
We make these assumptions in our minds, even if we don´t express them as such.

What I was interested in when I started this topic were assumption as they appear in our written or spoken statements.
when one uses language, one assumes that the terms one uses have the same meaning for the author as the audience...

-Imp
This one NEVER assumes this.

Age
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:53 pm

Justintruth wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:49 am
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
The second sentence assumes that if a sentence has a phrase "it seems to me" prepended on a statement then that sentence does not assume anything.
The second sentence also assumes that the "if" was a spelling error and "is" was meant.

Am I right?
Sentences do not assume any thing. Human beings assume things. What is written in a sentence may be what a human being assumes. But, sentences, themselves, are unable to think, thus they can not assume any thing.

Age
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:54 pm

duszek wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:49 pm
Justintruth wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:49 am
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
The second sentence assumes that if a sentence has a phrase "it seems to me" prepended on a statement then that sentence does not assume anything.
The second sentence also assumes that the "if" was a spelling error and "is" was meant.

Am I right?
You are right about the spelling error. But this assumption is safely made because otherwise there is no sense in the sentence at all.

If I start with "it seems to me" then I assume something but only temporarily so this assumption is so weak and wobbly that it is not a serious one.
I can start with "It seems to me" and NOT assume any thing at all.

Age
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
I think not.
"It seems to me" is almost directly identical in meaning to an assumption.
An assumption is a state where what "seems to be the case" is applied unchallenged.
I can express what some thing seems to me without assuming that it is the case.

Age
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:57 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:11 pm
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
The second sentence you have written above assumes that you are the one who wrote it. You may know this to be true, but I must assume so.
Why MUST you assume so?

Why can you not remain OPEN and just a clarifying question?

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:05 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:18 am
commonsense wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:22 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm


I think not.
"It seems to me" is almost directly identical in meaning to an assumption.
An assumption is a state where what "seems to be the case" is applied unchallenged.
That something seems to the author to be what it seems to the author is not an assumption on the part of the author nor on the part of the sentence. It is, however in assumption for the reader.
LOL
I knew your name was bullsh1t.
Your sentence does not ever parse, let alone pass.
What seems to you is what you are assuming to be the case.
You can't wriggle out if that.
When I write, 'What seems to me is ...' MEANS that I am NOT assuming any thing to be the case at all. In fact, I MEAN the exact opposite of assuming any thing is the case. But, this is how I write and what I mean, which can obviously be very different from what "others" mean when they write.

Age
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am
commonsense wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:52 pm
I think that it’s a matter of timing, in addition to a matter of proof. The subtle difference is in the prefixes.

A presumption is an unproved concept that is held beforehand, I.e. before the conversation began.

On the other hand, an assumption is an unproved concept that is accepted during a discussion.
It's a matter of epistemic criterion.

If we accept the premise "If a concept is proven then it is not an assumption" to be true, then all you need to ask in order to cast doubt is thus:

Is it proven? How? What is proof?

And you should know damn well that "What is X?" is an ontological question with no solution.
But that is only what you BELIEVE is true. The solution can be very easily given, but you obviously are NOT open to this.

Age
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:26 pm

duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.
To me there is an amount of assumptions that are made by human beings.
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".
The sentence may not assume anything because sentences, themselves, do not assume, but whether you are assuming or not is another matter.

When you say "most of what we say", are you assuming that "most of what we say" is full of unproven assumptions? Or, do you have actual proof that "most of what we say" is full of unproven assumptions? Or, are you just expressing that it seems to you that "most of what we say" is full of unproven assumptions?

If you do not have any actual proof that "most of what we say" is full of unproven assumptions, then WHY does "most of what we say" seem to be full of unproven assumptions?
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
I do not see any assumption within it, but if there is any assumption or not, then that is within the thinking, behind the writing of the sentence.

Is there any assumption within or behind the thinking, which created that sentence?
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
What does 'intransigant as a "descartes" ' actually mean to you?

If, to you, that 'intransigent' word means some thing like the definition that I just looked up stated, then I will NOT be intransigent as any thing. I am very flexible and changeable.

Skepdick
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:03 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 pm
But that is only what you BELIEVE is true.
But that is only what you BELIEVE that I believe.
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 pm
The solution can be very easily given, but you obviously are NOT open to this.
I am open. So you must be lying.

Prove that truth exists.

I'll go get some popcorn.

Age
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:19 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:03 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 pm
But that is only what you BELIEVE is true.
But that is only what you BELIEVE that I believe.
But I do not believe any thing.

I KNOW you BELIEVE that: "What is X?" is an ontological question with NO solution.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:03 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 pm
The solution can be very easily given, but you obviously are NOT open to this.
I am open. So you must be lying.
Am I?

Prove that 'you' are open and that 'I' am lying.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:03 pm
Prove that truth exists.
This is very easy to do, with an OPEN person. But nothing can be proven to you, because you are incapable of defining things, and having things defined to you.

If you were capable of defining the words you use, then things could be SHOWN to you.

You are incapable of seeing things and having things proven to you because of your BELIEFS.
Skepdick wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:03 pm
I'll go get some popcorn.
Go and do whatever you want to do.

'you' are going to be stuck CLOSED in your own BELIEFS for a long time coming.
Last edited by Age on Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skepdick
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:19 pm
But I do not believe any thing.
Then why are you making claims about my state of mind?
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:19 pm
Prove that 'you' are open and that 'I' am lying.
Well, you are claiming to be a mind reader so you know exactly why I think you are lying.

Therefore you know exactly how to prove to me that you aren't lying.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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