Unproven assumptions

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Sculptor
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by Sculptor » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 pm

duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
I think not.
"It seems to me" is almost directly identical in meaning to an assumption.
An assumption is a state where what "seems to be the case" is applied unchallenged.

duszek
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by duszek » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:06 pm

It´s applied unchallenged for the time being, for the sake of the argument.

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bahman
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:14 am

duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.
It depends whether we have a self-consistent system of thought or not. We don't have it yet. So there are some unproven assumptions.
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".
No, that is not correct since what is reality is a matter of proof rather than what it seems to us. You are assuming that what seems to you is true.
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
That is not correct either.

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frosteagle
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by frosteagle » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:29 am

We have to rely on heuristics because it is too burdensome to deal with the information to "prove" unstated assumptions, and it is rational only because we take for granted what works and demonize what does not despite it coming from the same methodology. Axioms exist because they are useful. Without them, we would not have been able to proceed as far as we have. Wrong axioms that are too grave usually end up correcting themselves and end up becoming a growing pain, analogous to man being a teenager growing up.

duszek
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by duszek » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:37 pm

Mr Frosteagle

We take for granted what works.

What works ... enough ?
What works ... better than other options ?
What seems to work ?
What works for the time being ?

What works for me does not work for a perfectionist like James Cameron. (I happen to read his biography at the moment.)

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:11 pm

duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
The second sentence you have written above assumes that you are the one who wrote it. You may know this to be true, but I must assume so.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:15 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:51 pm
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
You're assuming lots. You assume that some person can read this in your language. You assume someone to respond to your question. ...etc.

You are wrong to state that adding "it seems to me" as some get out-of-jail card on the potential accusation of your assumption too. Anything you EXPECT others to 'trust' of your claims or statements at all is an "assumption" that you expect others to at least presume 'true', even if just for the sake of argument.
As you say, the author assumes much. However, the question was about what the sentence assumes.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:19 pm

duszek wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:57 pm
Scott

I assume that someone can read my sentence ?
No, I hope so but if I am wrong then the truth value of the sentence does not change.

I assume that someone will answer it ?
No, I only hope so.

Please point out some other assumptions if you see any.
Are you now saying that the author’s assumptions are the sentence’s assumptions?

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:45 pm
you assume that your idea of the meaning of pain (or any term) is the same as that of everyone else...

delivering a child...

having a limb severed from your body...

partially burned in a fire...

which pain?

one assumes the approximation of meaning of words themselves...

-Imp
The author makes the assumption, not the sentence.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:23 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:37 am
duszek wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
It seems to me that most of what we say if full of unproven assumptions.

The sentence I have just written does not assume anything because of the introduction unit "it seems to me".

The second sentence I have just written does not assume anything either, because it is purely analytical.
Or do you see any assumption in it of any kind ?
Please be as intransigant as Descartes.
You are assuming that statements can be something more than communications.
The second sentence makes no such assumption.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:26 pm

duszek wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:17 pm
A_Seagull wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:37 am

You are assuming that statements can be something more than communications.
What makes you think that I assume this ?
And what is this something more ?

Let me try to find some assumptions in your sentence or statement. :lol:

You assume that to me statements and communications are not the same thing.
That to me communications are a subsection of statements.

Can we agree on this ?
I agree. SeagullI is merely assuming that you make those assumptions.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:41 pm

duszek wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:00 pm
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding.

I don´t quite see a difference between an assumption and a presumption.

In a syllogism it is an unproven premise.

What we assume to be true is only visible in our utterances. We cannot be sure what other people assume just like this, by intuition or whatever. We can guess, of course, but a guess is only a guess.

What I wanted to discuss were unproven assumptions as they appear in our utterances.
On this forum our written statements in posts.

If you don´t wish to continue this because you are disappointed, Seagull, then it´s o.k.
I believe that I understand all of your post, because I believe that my interpretation of your utterance is sufficiently close to your intended meanings.

I think that we make those guesses based on heuristics formed from our social experiences. For example, if everyone runs away when I shout, “Fire!” then I guess that my utterance means, at least nearly if not exactly, the same thing to those people. Of course, in this case the meaning of the word is assisted by my tone of voice.
Last edited by commonsense on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:52 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:28 am
A_Seagull wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:34 am
Assumptions are by their very nature unproven, if they could be proven they would not be assumptions.
Begging the question.

If the distinction between an assumption and presumption is but a matter of proof, then what is proof?

How would I go about proving that today is Friday?
I think that it’s a matter of timing, in addition to a matter of proof. The subtle difference is in the prefixes.

A presumption is an unproved concept that is held beforehand, I.e. before the conversation began.

On the other hand, an assumption is an unproved concept that is accepted during a discussion.
Last edited by commonsense on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:55 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:12 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:28 am
A_Seagull wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:34 am
Assumptions are by their very nature unproven, if they could be proven they would not be assumptions.
Begging the question.

If the distinction between an assumption and presumption is but a matter of proof, then what is proof?

How would I go about proving that today is Friday?
How would you go about proving that today is Friday? By pointing at a calendar.
Begs the question, how would you know that you are pointing at today?

commonsense
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Re: Unproven assumptions

Post by commonsense » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:01 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:23 am
duszek wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:17 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:59 pm

swiftly? no... assumptions hold existence together...

there is no guarantee that future events will even occur or that they will resemble past events...

-Imp
Yes, Mr Imp.
We assume things to be in a certain way in the world.
We make these assumptions in our minds, even if we don´t express them as such.

What I was interested in when I started this topic were assumption as they appear in our written or spoken statements.
when one uses language, one assumes that the terms one uses have the same meaning for the author as the audience...

-Imp
Yes, one assumes this, but, again, the utterance per se does not.

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