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How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:49 pm
by bahman
How do we get an idea through reading a text for example?

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:56 pm
by odysseus
There are a great number of issues within this: a text? IS there one text, or does any given text yield to the reader in such a way that each interpretation constitutes an text unto itself, making one text actually as many as there are readers. Then what of that which binds a community of reader/interpreters together, the commonality of thought, the consensus: how is it that we agree? It would seem there is something that we all are even if we are entirely different centers of understanding. We are the language and the cultural institutions that circulate through our talk and our thoughts and feelings. But is there anything behind such institutions? Or does an analysis of these exhaust who and what we are? Is the written text simply a representional example, a part of a body of collective thinking, in which case,to read is to agree on possibilities as to what meaningful interpretations could even be? What about ambiguity? In Stanley Fish's Is There a Text in this Class? we are presented with the ambiguity of terms, as they are contextually bound. What does this mean language, written or otherwise? Is the text context bound? What then is the nature of being so? Is it a pragmatic business,determining which "text" is the term that applies here or there?
then this moves into the nature of language itself. I think our terms are pragmatic constructions, living vestiges of problem solving experiences past. Te whole of our being here is problem solving, and language is at the center. It is equipmental, it has utility. And importantly, it does not tell us what things are, only how.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:19 pm
by bahman
odysseus wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:56 pm
There are a great number of issues within this: a text? IS there one text, or does any given text yield to the reader in such a way that each interpretation constitutes an text unto itself, making one text actually as many as there are readers. Then what of that which binds a community of reader/interpreters together, the commonality of thought, the consensus: how is it that we agree? It would seem there is something that we all are even if we are entirely different centers of understanding. We are the language and the cultural institutions that circulate through our talk and our thoughts and feelings. But is there anything behind such institutions? Or does an analysis of these exhaust who and what we are? Is the written text simply a representional example, a part of a body of collective thinking, in which case,to read is to agree on possibilities as to what meaningful interpretations could even be? What about ambiguity? In Stanley Fish's Is There a Text in this Class? we are presented with the ambiguity of terms, as they are contextually bound. What does this mean language, written or otherwise? Is the text context bound? What then is the nature of being so? Is it a pragmatic business,determining which "text" is the term that applies here or there?
then this moves into the nature of language itself. I think our terms are pragmatic constructions, living vestiges of problem solving experiences past. Te whole of our being here is problem solving, and language is at the center. It is equipmental, it has utility. And importantly, it does not tell us what things are, only how.
Interesting questions. Thanks for the writing.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:55 pm
by Walker
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:49 pm
How do we get an idea through reading a text for example?
Think of a radio, or wireless for the really old-timers.

The text is a static (unchanging) transmission.
The reception receives on various frequencies, some with less static (interference).
A good Ham operator can tune into the clearest signal.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:09 pm
by Speakpigeon
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:49 pm
How do we get an idea through reading a text for example?
It has to be a very complex, and complicated process.
Possibly, as you read the text, each word is interpreted by your brain so that the interpretation retained is the best fit for the current semantic context as the brain has it. The semantic context will depend on the current state of affair around the person as the brain sees it. This also includes the part of the text already interpreted. It also includes for example what the person remember about what the text is about. So, that's a first step, the interpretation of each word to elicit the correct meaning.
Then the meaning of the word just interpreted, as understood by the brain, is used to interpret the meaning of the sentence it is part of. This time, syntactic rules also come into play. And then the meaning of the sentence is used by the brain to continue to work out the main ideas of the text. You don't remember everything when reading a text. Your brain focus on the main ideas as it sees them, which are not necessarily the main ideas intended by the author.
Interpretation is a mix of intuition and thinking. Easy literature will only require intuition. Broadly because your brain already knows the building blocks and they are ready to help interpretation. For more difficult literature, say like philosophy, where each sentence potentially can harbour an idea that's completely new to you, then you will need intuition but also more than intuition. You will probably need to think hard about what possible meaning the author intended to convey. You may even have to keep alive two different interpretations until you can decide which is more likely.
Then all sorts of things will skew the interpretation process, in particular the emotions you have on reading the text, or possibly about the author, etc.
Interpretation is probably a process similar to a selection in a database where you use keywords, criteria, to select the relevant set of records. The criteria for interpreting a word will be the spelling of the word, the place of the word within the text, etc. For the interpretation of sentences, the criteria will be the meaning of the words part of the sentence. The database used is essentially all the linguistic data integrated by your brain since you were born. The database is probably a complex structure where words are closely associated with semantic domains, like science v. politics, informal v. formal, poetic v. analytic etc. Just a guess. It's the broad idea.
And that's definitely just the broad idea. The actual process is probably the most complex process in the whole universe. So, make sure you enjoy every moment of it.
EB

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:07 pm
by bahman
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:09 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:49 pm
How do we get an idea through reading a text for example?
It has to be a very complex, and complicated process.
Possibly, as you read the text, each word is interpreted by your brain so that the interpretation retained is the best fit for the current semantic context as the brain has it. The semantic context will depend on the current state of affair around the person as the brain sees it. This also includes the part of the text already interpreted. It also includes for example what the person remember about what the text is about. So, that's a first step, the interpretation of each word to elicit the correct meaning.
Then the meaning of the word just interpreted, as understood by the brain, is used to interpret the meaning of the sentence it is part of. This time, syntactic rules also come into play. And then the meaning of the sentence is used by the brain to continue to work out the main ideas of the text. You don't remember everything when reading a text. Your brain focus on the main ideas as it sees them, which are not necessarily the main ideas intended by the author.
Interpretation is a mix of intuition and thinking. Easy literature will only require intuition. Broadly because your brain already knows the building blocks and they are ready to help interpretation. For more difficult literature, say like philosophy, where each sentence potentially can harbour an idea that's completely new to you, then you will need intuition but also more than intuition. You will probably need to think hard about what possible meaning the author intended to convey. You may even have to keep alive two different interpretations until you can decide which is more likely.
Then all sorts of things will skew the interpretation process, in particular the emotions you have on reading the text, or possibly about the author, etc.
Interpretation is probably a process similar to a selection in a database where you use keywords, criteria, to select the relevant set of records. The criteria for interpreting a word will be the spelling of the word, the place of the word within the text, etc. For the interpretation of sentences, the criteria will be the meaning of the words part of the sentence. The database used is essentially all the linguistic data integrated by your brain since you were born. The database is probably a complex structure where words are closely associated with semantic domains, like science v. politics, informal v. formal, poetic v. analytic etc. Just a guess. It's the broad idea.
And that's definitely just the broad idea. The actual process is probably the most complex process in the whole universe. So, make sure you enjoy every moment of it.
EB
Thanks for the writing. That clarify many things. The key question is then how intuition works. Intuition should be at work when we are creating a new idea by our minds using a set older ideas which we created before, like a pyramid where the new idea sits on the top.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:08 pm
by bahman
Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:55 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:49 pm
How do we get an idea through reading a text for example?
Think of a radio, or wireless for the really old-timers.

The text is a static (unchanging) transmission.
The reception receives on various frequencies, some with less static (interference).
A good Ham operator can tune into the clearest signal.
I cannot understand what you are talking about. Do you mind to elaborate?

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:17 pm
by Impenitent
a better ham operator can cure the pig

-Imp

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:25 am
by Speakpigeon
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:07 pm
Thanks for the writing. That clarify many things. The key question is then how intuition works. Intuition should be at work when we are creating a new idea by our minds using a set older ideas which we created before, like a pyramid where the new idea sits on the top.
Obviously, nobody knows.
Still, as I see it, intuition works indeed from a database of notions that the brain has previously integrated. The database is essentially what you've learnt through your life since birth. However, it's not knowledge as such. Rather, it's what you've learnt, which may well be bullshit. When you're interested in a problem, the key point to let your intuition come into play, is to give your brain the time to integrate the new data. So, a good idea is to work for example two hours a day on this problem, so that your brain takes in the stuff and has the time to "integrate" the new information. Another key point, is to diversify the points of view, the kind of data relative to the problem, because brains are really champions to establish correlations between apparently unrelated sets of data. A third key point, is to articulate whatever ideas you've got so far. Your brain will also work on that, given the time to do it. Intuition is probably the only intelligence we have. When we think, we toy with bits and ends without knowing what we're doing. It's only our intuition that will come into play to tell us that this bit and that end have to do with each other. So, our unconscious brain is more intelligent than our conscious mind. It's clear for example that when you're trying to solve a problem, your brain may already find the solution perhaps several days before you. And it will give you the solution through intuition, i.e. you're thinking about a problem and there it is, you suddenly have the intuition something you're thinking is the answer. Sometimes the brain may have the solution, or part of the solution, years before you finally get round to it, if you ever do.
A last point perhaps... Intuition is not just some idea that pops up in your mind as most people seem to believe. Intuition is really your brain insisting on telling you that something is the case or is true or is the solution. It tells you you should really pay attention to this one. If you feel that both A and not A are both possibilities, then neither is an intuition.
Still, remember your intuition works on whatever you've learnt, and this may actually be complete bullshit. So, perhaps another key point is to keep an open mind and resist dogmatism. Whatever pet theory you're working on, remember it may well be trash. It's still best to stand your ground as you do, but that shouldn't prevent you from considering the possible value of the arguments other people put forward. Let your brain sort out which is true. This is the only fountain of truth you can trust you will ever have. You just need to give it the time to work its magic and to consider and learn the possibly relevant facts.
EB

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:33 pm
by Walker
Impenitent wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:17 pm
a better ham operator can cure the pig

-Imp
It the United States, insurance companies are trying to top one another with the wackiness of their advertising.

Financial institution + wacky = old paradigm + what?

They’re only doing it for profit.
How does old paradigm + what? = profit

Australian sensibilities started the trend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJDni6Bopzo

Old paradigm = wackiness-does-not-inspire-confidence-in-financial-institutions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJFrkNY4n1g

What’s the appeal? Non-stuffy? Unique? Grandpa-goofiness? Irony? Post-modernism? Dadaism?

These are the important questions.

:wink:

Why? They point to conditioning.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:20 pm
by bahman
Speakpigeon wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:25 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:07 pm
Thanks for the writing. That clarify many things. The key question is then how intuition works. Intuition should be at work when we are creating a new idea by our minds using a set older ideas which we created before, like a pyramid where the new idea sits on the top.
Obviously, nobody knows.
Still, as I see it, intuition works indeed from a database of notions that the brain has previously integrated. The database is essentially what you've learnt through your life since birth. However, it's not knowledge as such. Rather, it's what you've learnt, which may well be bullshit. When you're interested in a problem, the key point to let your intuition come into play, is to give your brain the time to integrate the new data. So, a good idea is to work for example two hours a day on this problem, so that your brain takes in the stuff and has the time to "integrate" the new information. Another key point, is to diversify the points of view, the kind of data relative to the problem, because brains are really champions to establish correlations between apparently unrelated sets of data. A third key point, is to articulate whatever ideas you've got so far. Your brain will also work on that, given the time to do it. Intuition is probably the only intelligence we have. When we think, we toy with bits and ends without knowing what we're doing. It's only our intuition that will come into play to tell us that this bit and that end have to do with each other. So, our unconscious brain is more intelligent than our conscious mind. It's clear for example that when you're trying to solve a problem, your brain may already find the solution perhaps several days before you. And it will give you the solution through intuition, i.e. you're thinking about a problem and there it is, you suddenly have the intuition something you're thinking is the answer. Sometimes the brain may have the solution, or part of the solution, years before you finally get round to it, if you ever do.
A last point perhaps... Intuition is not just some idea that pops up in your mind as most people seem to believe. Intuition is really your brain insisting on telling you that something is the case or is true or is the solution. It tells you you should really pay attention to this one. If you feel that both A and not A are both possibilities, then neither is an intuition.
Still, remember your intuition works on whatever you've learnt, and this may actually be complete bullshit. So, perhaps another key point is to keep an open mind and resist dogmatism. Whatever pet theory you're working on, remember it may well be trash. It's still best to stand your ground as you do, but that shouldn't prevent you from considering the possible value of the arguments other people put forward. Let your brain sort out which is true. This is the only fountain of truth you can trust you will ever have. You just need to give it the time to work its magic and to consider and learn the possibly relevant facts.
EB
Thanks. I see.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:30 pm
by Walker
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:08 pm
I cannot understand what you are talking about. Do you mind to elaborate?
I don’t control the reception (understanding).

You do.

Because that transmission (which you cannot understand) is static (unchanging), then if the transmission is incomprehensible, in order to understand the transmission the responsibility to change ignorance by adjusting the frequency of the reception falls on the controller of the reception, in order to eliminate any static (in the attic) that interferes with understanding.

Sometimes one must even learn a new language to find the right frequency of reception.

*

"What's the frequency, Kenneth?"

Example:

"Teacher: "When A and X are both positive integers in the equation a(4/4)=x and Y is a negative integer in the equation xy=a2, what is the value of Y? Billy?"

"Billy: "HOLY CRAP! WHAT'S THE FREQUENCY, KENNETH!!?"
"

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... Kenneth%3F

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:13 pm
by bahman
Walker wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:30 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:08 pm
I cannot understand what you are talking about. Do you mind to elaborate?
I don’t control the reception (understanding).

You do.

Because that transmission (which you cannot understand) is static (unchanging), then if the transmission is incomprehensible, in order to understand the transmission the responsibility to change ignorance by adjusting the frequency of the reception falls on the controller of the reception, in order to eliminate any static (in the attic) that interferes with understanding.

Sometimes one must even learn a new language to find the right frequency of reception.

*

"What's the frequency, Kenneth?"

Example:

"Teacher: "When A and X are both positive integers in the equation a(4/4)=x and Y is a negative integer in the equation xy=a2, what is the value of Y? Billy?"

"Billy: "HOLY CRAP! WHAT'S THE FREQUENCY, KENNETH!!?"
"

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... Kenneth%3F
I think it is impossible to understand understanding. I put it in my transcendent box.

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:18 pm
by Walker
Obstinance is one of the staticky frequencies.

Obstinate is found on the receiver tuner’s O frequency, which is next to N, for No; sub-frequencies are not, Neiner, negativity, nihilism, and nooooo!

Does that help?

Re: How do we transfer idea through language?

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:40 pm
by bahman
Walker wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:18 pm
Obstinance is one of the staticky frequencies.

Obstinate is found on the receiver tuner’s O frequency, which is next to N, for No; sub-frequencies are not, Neiner, negativity, nihilism, and nooooo!

Does that help?
No, it didn't help! Do you mind to elaborate!? :mrgreen: